Puppy prices

[Morian]

Originally Posted by saschia

it would be best if one could test all the puppies

this is a good idea for breeders which sell their pups for 1000 eur and more but it's sad we can't be so sure about future hd result

but speaking seriously, i would pay +66 eur (or how much does the test cost) just to be sure that my pup will be healthy.

[saschia]

Originally Posted by Morian

this is a good idea for breeders which sell their pups for 1000 eur and more but it's sad we can't be so sure about future hd result

Yes, if I had a buyer for the pup for Euro 1000, then I'd do the test. But for me it is a lot of money still. Especially if you put together all the things you may want - at least two genetic test are available today, chips (and they are expensive here as they are not used massively yet), pet passports, etc. I'll ask my vet about taking blood samples from the pups before they leave home, I think I'll want to at least save the samples for later.

[Morian]

Originally Posted by saschia

Yes, if I had a buyer for the pup for Euro 1000...

but all slovakian breeders want 1000 eur from us (i mean russians, and for other countries - i just don't know) but some czech breeders want even more... and much more, believe me *
very funny but even at us we have pups from parents which don't have even hd evaluation for the same price and up to 2750 for a non-fci litter

*well... offtopic... but i am still curious what does this price include if normally price is ~400 eur (not for foreign people...)

[saschia]

Originally Posted by Morian

*well... offtopic... but i am still curious what does this price include if normally price is ~400 eur (not for foreign people...)

Yes, I also ask from foreign people 1000 Euro, as that is the value of pups in my opinion (maybe it would be higher if the father was a big champion or what), but until now I only sold in Slovakia and Czech republic, and people won't pay that much money here. Maybe some would, but I am not a good seller. I can get other value from them, like coming to our shows and youth presentation and bonitation, but I can't pay for the test by that...

From me, the price includes tattoo, chip (if interested), appropriate vaccinations, deworming treatment and quite a good basic socialization and upbringing. My previous litter got their Pet Passports and chips at once, as there were only 3 so I could afford it. For foreigners, the Pet passport and chip is automatic, also export pedigree.

[Vaiva]

Originally Posted by saschia

Yes, I also ask from foreign people 1000 Euro, as that is the value of pups in my opinion (maybe it would be higher if the father was a big champion or what), but until now I only sold in Slovakia and Czech republic, and people won't pay that much money here. Maybe some would, but I am not a good seller. I can get other value from them, like coming to our shows and youth presentation and bonitation, but I can't pay for the test by that...

From me, the price includes tattoo, chip (if interested), appropriate vaccinations, deworming treatment and quite a good basic socialization and upbringing. My previous litter got their Pet Passports and chips at once, as there were only 3 so I could afford it. For foreigners, the Pet passport and chip is automatic, also export pedigree.

So you think that people in foreign countries can pay 1000 euro even if slovaks and czechs can't? I would better give a puppy as a gift for a loving family, who will spend a lot of time with a dog, socialise and train him properly and even go to shows, better than sell to someone who only need something expensive to show to others...

We should be kicked to a topic about puppy prices

[martiou07]

here in France, a CSW is sold between 1000 and 1500 euros (sometimes 2000 euros ), I include/understand your request, however to be frank with you, my pups I sell them surroundings 1000 euros, that of course covers my expenses for the range, but also maintenance of my other dogs (food, veterinar...), 4 CSW and 1 Dutch shepherd, as I ensure you as I am nevertheless in the red, this problem interest me much, also I intend to make test my dogs, but from there to make test my pups, honestly, I do not know .

[saschia]

Originally Posted by Vaiva

So you think that people in foreign countries can pay 1000 euro even if slovaks and czechs can't? I would better give a puppy as a gift for a loving family, who will spend a lot of time with a dog, socialise and train him properly and even go to shows, better than sell to someone who only need something expensive to show to others...

The problem is not that they can't, but they won't. Well, it is usually because they can't as that is much higher than their salary and keeping dog is also not cheap, but people who could usually don't want CSW (and are not suited for one either).

I think 1000 Euro is a fair price, but of course I rather sell to good hands for 350 than get 1000 and never know about the pup later. But, I am not a puppy producer, for me it is a hobby and I will never make money on it (even if I was able to sell couple for 1000). But if you have several litters per year you really cannot afford to sponsor the breeding...

By the way, I always wonder why people are willing to pay 2500-3500 euros for pups, no matter what parents. But while there is anybody there willing to pay such prices, there will be people who are selling for such prices.

Originally Posted by Vaiva

We should be kicked to a topic about puppy prices

Second that. Hope some good mod will do exactly that (and I can't, I have mod rights for CZ/SK forum only).

[martiou07]

after yes a more producing stockbreeder, why not, I suppose that could be possible, but me which does not produce enormously, that would be very difficult, and I do not hope to increase the rate/rhythm of reproduction of my breeding family...

[Morian]

Originally Posted by saschia

By the way, I always wonder why people are willing to pay 2500-3500 euros for pups, no matter what parents.

sometimes it looks like a network marketing people buy expensive pups to breed expensive pups for another people which want to produce expensive pups. at us it is... and nothing except show titles matters. and in such case it's just not profitable to research the breed, to test dogs etc
back to the prices. i would ask 1000 eur for my pup (but i don't breed) if i went to slovakian male for example and paid for gas (~1600 km x 2), visa, mating cost, hotel etc., if i paid for tests, if i fed my bitch good, if i spent money for training etc., finally shows, yes... but there are many cases when breeders want even 1500 eur, but it's hard to explain why 1500 and not 500 or 5000. it depends only on their fantasy. and it is single and most usual excuse - this will be very interesting litter with very good blood

[Rona]

Originally Posted by Morian

single and most usual excuse - this will be very interesting litter with very good blood

or... "it comes from a working line"

[Morian]

Originally Posted by Rona

or... "it comes from a working line"

...shy uncontrolable dogs looking through the cage BUT from a working line
but most of all i like these "interesting lines" because breeders can excuse all - defects, behavior etc just telling - oh, it's not so important, important that this litter is sooo interesting, ah, oh...

[saschia]

Originally Posted by Morian

back to the prices. i would ask 1000 eur for my pup (but i don't breed) if i went to slovakian male for example and paid for gas (~1600 km x 2), visa, mating cost, hotel etc., if i paid for tests, if i fed my bitch good, if i spent money for training etc., finally shows, yes...

You see, I do most of these things and yet I usually don't get the full value. So that's why I ask the full value at least from people who live in countries where the salaries are better than here. And those are the same people who sometimes buy wolfdog puppies, not better than mine for three times as much as I ask.

Maybe I should ask more?

Just for comparison - what I have to give to get the litter:
1) buy wolfdog bitch
2) feed good food, vaccinate, keep healthy
- ok, everybody does these. What more?
3) go to youth presentation, bonitation, SVP, two shows - each around 200-300 km trip
4) go for X-ray and send the images for evaluation
4b) pray for good results ;o)
5a) measure progesterone levels for good timing - didn't do this year, lost 1000 km trip due to that
5b) go for mating (this year it was two trips 500 km each and 4 trips 200 km each, as she did not get pregnant the first time)
6a) go for echo to verify pregnancy (to adjust the food - my bitch gets false pregnancy so I cannot go by her behaviour only)
6b) anything wrong during pregnancy - go to vet, buy medicines, go for echo to control if everything goes OK
7) whelping, care for puppies, feeding the bitch and the pups with obscene amounts of food ;o)
8 ) socialize pups, take for trips, bring visitors
9) give deworming treatments to pups
10) tattoo (+ chips for export)
11) vaccinations (+ Pet Passport)
12) control from the club - pay the membership fees, pay the breeding advisor's trip
13) pedigrees (Export pedigrees for foreigners - cost more)

If I did this all for profit (or to stay at least not too far in red numbers) - I would have to export most of my pups, or sell to the 5% of Slovaks with EU-comparable income. Or maybe produce so many pups that I get the large-volume discounts for everything.

[Morian]

Originally Posted by saschia

So that's why I ask the full value at least from people who live in countries where the salaries are better than here.

not at us... surely

but let's calculate:

1) buy wolfdog bitch = ~800 eur (i take average price)
2) feed good food, vaccinate, keep healthy
- ok, everybody does these. What more? = let it be 5 eur per day for food, so we have 3650 eur only for food during first 2 years - time until first litter and let it be 4000 with vaccinations and keeping healthy (it must be really healthy bitch for these money )
3) go to youth presentation, bonitation, SVP, two shows - each around 200-300 km trip = i don't know how much does it cost for you, but for us it would be something around 500 eur if we have svp, bonitation and shows in our country
4) go for X-ray and send the images for evaluation = at us (i don't know your prices) it's 60-70 eur.
4b) pray for good results ;o) = priceless
5a) measure progesterone levels for good timing - didn't do this year, lost 1000 km trip due to that = at it's only 20 eur
5b) go for mating (this year it was two trips 500 km each and 4 trips 200 km each, as she did not get pregnant the first time) = average between you and us must be 500 eur
6a) go for echo to verify pregnancy (to adjust the food - my bitch gets false pregnancy so I cannot go by her behaviour only)
6b) anything wrong during pregnancy - go to vet, buy medicines, go for echo to control if everything goes OK 6a+6b must be = ~50-100 eur (you forgot vitamines and feeding of pregnant bitch )
7) whelping, care for puppies, feeding the bitch and the pups with obscene amounts of food ;o) if we have 6 pups during 2 months and leave 5 eur per day for each one... = 1800 (!!!)
8 ) socialize pups, take for trips, bring visitors = priceless
9) give deworming treatments to pups = not too much, at us it's less than 1 eur per pup
10) tattoo (+ chips for export) = 50 eur
11) vaccinations (+ Pet Passport) = 15x6 = ~100 eur
12) control from the club - pay the membership fees, pay the breeding advisor's trip = i don't know these prices
13) pedigrees (Export pedigrees for foreigners - cost more) = the same, but let it be also 50 eur x 6 = 300

+ mating fee - 600 eur for 6 pups

and so we have 8840 just for first litter of 6 pups but if we have more than 1 litter, then price will not be more so scary 8840/6= ~1500 eur

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

Originally Posted by Rona

or... "it comes from a working line"

That was a brilliant one...

Cheers,

(a still grinning) Michael

[saschia]

Morian, nice math. I think it is a bit (not much) cheaper here (some thing are more expensive, some less), but you can see that the value of the pups (just what you need to invest) is more than 1000 eur that we (ok, I) ask from foreigners, and far more than we get from our neighbours. If I was a good businessman, I should ask at least 2000 e for a pup, to be on the plus side and cover some risks (you don't always get a good bitch).

[saschia]

yea, "interesting blood" and "working line" and "champion parents" are all a good jokes...

And then the real interesting blood and working and champion parents are lost in the ocean of litters that are just produced for money (or whatever other small reasons).

[Morian]

Originally Posted by saschia

Morian, nice math. I think it is a bit (not much) cheaper here (some thing are more expensive, some less), but you can see that the value of the pups (just what you need to invest) is more than 1000 eur that we (ok, I) ask from foreigners, and far more than we get from our neighbours. If I was a good businessman, I should ask at least 2000 e for a pup, to be on the plus side and cover some risks (you don't always get a good bitch).

not nice, it scared me because now i also own a bitch
cheaper or not, but we didn't count training, travels and many other things which we can not remember.
but when we speak about breeders which have many litters per year and surely every bitch has many litters diring its life... that's why i wonder seeing prices like 1200, 1500 etc at such breeders. i didn't mean "family breeders", breeders like you or some others which have 1-2 litters per year and their dogs are firstly their family members, but not a kind of material or financial basis of their existence.

[Morian]

Originally Posted by saschia

yea, "interesting blood" and "working line" and "champion parents" are all a good jokes...

And then the real interesting blood and working and champion parents are lost in the ocean of litters that are just produced for money (or whatever other small reasons).

most of all i like ugly shy etc. dogs taken to breeding because they have these "interesting" bloods. no, no, not because their owners or breeders already paid for them and don't want to hear that their dogs are not super-hyper etc., but because they are "interesting"

[saschia]

Yes, but if you do the breeding for business, then you need to not only cover your expenses like these, you have to count everything as expense (as you'll pay the taxes, so you want to minimize that), you have to count on risks like yo'll get all the things done but the bitch will be not good enough for breeding (and you should not breed bad bitches), so that's just the money down the drain - and you can resell the bitch but you won't get the expenses and time back.

So all in all, I understand that the pro-breeders ask so much money, I just don't understand that people pay that kind of money, when there are cheaper litters from good quality parents available (even if you'd travel across Europe to get the pup yourself).

I mean, you expect to pay obscene prices for Prada shoes and i-dont-know-the-brands handbags and only small money for chinese look-alikes, but the pups are pups, the parents are comparable (often better as they are tested by experts), the result are often just luck, as you cannot predict much, so why?

[Morian]

i don't understand it too. if i want to buy a csv pup, i look for info about csv, i find dogs, i find owners etc, so finally i can imagine what is a quality pup, what its parents must have except show titles. i think that such people which buy nobody-knows-what-and-who-knows-doesn't-wanna-name-it don't look for info = have no interest = they want just to buy right now and they even don't interest what do they buy = thanks god that they buy pups from other breeders, not from you
and also i don't understand why do some breeders have the same quality, tests etc, and even better sometimes, but don't want 1000 eur and more for their pups