Typical temperament of CsWs

[jasmine]

Originally Posted by Margo

I agree with your words. But you must also agree that he is not a dog which will hug other males. And he is also not a dog who on dog show is looking hollow in the air or counting butterlies flying outside the window.



Hmmm...if Casar is not selfconfident than how you will can your dogs?



Yes, yes. He was sweet dog playing with cats and chickens, kissing other males, of course he was never growling. He was also inviting all people to his house... And slow and lazy like pekinesse....

But oppps - we are talking about Borko Kollarov dvor... right?

???????? Have you seen Gisu to give kissess to other males? Or did I wrote that Gisu,Gandalf and Emir kissess each other??????????????????????
I wrote they didn't want to kill each other...I think it is not the same things !
Slow and lazy like an old pekingese????? ohhhhh so where were the eyes' of the judges when put him in the firts place several times...several times!!!!

And please don't write about Casar to us: many of us know him very well !!!!!!

[Morian]

Originally Posted by jasmine

???????? Have you seen Gisu to give kissess to other males? Or did I wrote that Gisu,Gandalf and Emir kissess each other??????????????????????

o-o
my male usually does it... and never starts to fight first (or only in some cases when he must protect me or other "pack" members), but he is surely able to (it's checked ). does it mean that i own a pekinesse? and what is dominancy? desire to kill all moving around? somebody is wrong now...

[jasmine]

yes...you are right...something is wrong.....
everybody sing theire own song

for me a well socialized , handable dog could behave in dogshow, could behave among another dogs, people.
And it doesn't mean that this kind of dogs don't fit to the standard!!!!

If you couldn't handle your dog's agressivity/dominancy it means not you are the pack leader.
That's simple.

[Morian]

...it all looks like some people try to turn serious faults into specialities
dog can be dominant, can be calm, can be active etc., but never must be shy or agressive. and this difference exists, sorry. dog must be handable and obidient. maybe some people lazy to train their dogs want to say that their dogs are just typical we all are different too with different temperaments, but we all are normal (i hope ). so there is a difference between individual characteristic and pathology and this is big mistake to mix it.

[z Peronówki]

Originally Posted by Morian

...it all looks like some people try to turn serious faults into specialities
dog can be dominant, can be calm, can be active etc., but never must be shy or agressive. and this difference exists, sorry. dog must be handable and obidient. maybe some people lazy to train their dogs want to say that their dogs are just typical we all are different too with different temperaments, but we all are normal (i hope ). so there is a difference between individual characteristic and pathology and this is big mistake to mix it.

Yes, it is true. The problem is to "evaluate" the real character of a dog. Which is shy? Which is just not socialized? Or just has submisive character?
Agressive? Or trained? Or scared and attacking?

I will call you two examples. There was a nice dog with GREAT character. Very good stable dog which didn't wanted to attack just for fun. But his owner decided that he want to pass some IPO exams. The dog was beaten so long that he started to attack people. Not only decoy but also "normal" people. I knew this dog before his "training". And I know that later he was described as "extremly agressive" wolfdog".
Another example: there was a dog which had the tendency to attack people without any reason. Really agressive. His owner used electric collar and made this dog a "nice, calm dog" - the dog was too affraid to bite anybody. Now he is know as a dog with nice, friendly and calm character....

You can change the dog, you can change his "publicity" - but what you can not change is the genetic.

People called first dogs "agressive" but exactly puppies of the second one can "inheritate" the "genes of agression"...


The problem is that what you can read in internet, what the owners are writing on their pages, what is told about some dogs is sometimes very far from the reality... You saw here that some dogs were called "shy", some described as "nice" and "friendly", some as "calm" and some as "hyperactive", some "agressive" and some "stable". You need really a lot to do to find out what is true.... because in many cases what you hear are just ..fairy-tales...

[jefta]

Originally Posted by z Peronówki

Yes, it is true. The problem is to "evaluate" the real character of a dog. Which is shy? Which is just not socialized? Or just has submisive character?
Agressive? Or trained? Or scared and attacking?

as long as breeders believe that every shy dog is great character but not socialized this situation which I saw in Trusalova and on dog shows will never change
It's easy to verify is dog scared and attacking.

[wolfin]

Originally Posted by jefta

as long as breeders believe that every shy dog is great character but not socialized this situation which I saw in Trusalova and on dog shows will never change
It's easy to verify is dog scared and attacking.

can say moore- I not was in Trusalova and not understand who situation You saw.

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

Originally Posted by z Peronówki

Yes, it is true. The problem is to "evaluate" the real character of a dog. Which is shy? Which is just not socialized? Or just has submisive character?
Agressive? Or trained? Or scared and attacking?

. You saw here that some dogs were called "shy", some described as "nice" and "friendly", some as "calm" and some as "hyperactive", some "agressive" and some "stable". You need really a lot to do to find out what is true.... because in many cases what you hear are just ..fairy-tales...

Originally Posted by z Peronówki

Now let's take a not trained wolfdog attacked by huge "Schwarzenerger"-decoy. According the bonitation rules our Wolfdog should change to "kamikaze" dog and attack although the dogs knows EXACTLY that he has no chance to win. A dumb dog will do this. Clever dog will avoid confrontation... In the best possible way...

The problem is such dogs are judged according the pattern and called "weak" or even "shy". EVEN if they can be trained into a very good "strong" dogs (if a dog is trained to "win" with Schwarzeneger-decoys such dog will believe very fast in his "power" and will start to attack also frontal. But it must be trained/teached).

What I want to say that in many cases - when we do not take into consideration the real character of this breed we do not select for good Wolfdogs but we made selection to have "not-thinking" "kamikaze dogs"... To have less inteligent dogs as we have at the moment...

I knew we had the same opinion, I totally agree. And that is exactly why I don´t like the Czech bonitation and prefer the Slovakian one. I have seen fear aggressive dogs getting an Of because they attacked in a trained situation they could not escape.

It also is a point of view according to argumentation for defense training. It very often is said that it makes a dog safer because it will only attack the arm. I was defended by my not trained and very thoughtfull dog, she grabbed the butt. Very safe for the dog, very effective and not causing severe damage to the attacker but can be hold for a long time. She defended without hesitation in a situation where I would not have been able to defend myself but would have got bad marks in character test.

Ina

[Rona]

When talking with breeders and owners of pups (or reading some posts on WD ) I sometimes hear that "my dog" or "this litter" has great character/s. Sorry, but it alwyas makes me smile. At what age, in your opinion, guys, should the character of a dog be assessed, so that the evaluation would make sense - say something about a particular dog, and not of its potential? Within my limited experience I'd say - when the dog is at least 2,5 - to three years, but maybe some of you have other views?

I'm not talking about the character as assessed by the "prepared" Czech bonitation character test, because just like Ina - I don't think much of it. , but of the general character of the dog as displayed in everyday life - in the streets, among crowds of people, with visitors, among other dogs at trainings etc. etc.

[woland77]

Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn

I knew we had the same opinion, I totally agree. And that is exactly why I don´t like the Czech bonitation and prefer the Slovakian one. I have seen fear aggressive dogs getting an Of because they attacked in a trained situation they could not escape.

I also agree, i also have seen self-defense reaction judge like a Of dog. The problem is the judgment, exprecion of body reveals this, also if the dog is trained for long time.
For me all bonitation, Czech, Slowak, Italian are empty for real select work dog as standard ask. But is better to make bonitation than mating without nothing!

x Margo: I don't agree to think a CZW like a wolf. Is not a wolf, is more smart than a dog, but his behavior is not wolf's behavior, and for me is an error to think this.

We can't think a work dog than make is work based on his instinct or natural reaction. (like your Swarzenegger example) Work dog must believe on his owner and cooperate with him, also when he take some risk.
Not only defense work (is not really work for czw, but a real intrument to see some features of caracter), also, and more much on research and other utility work. Wolf seek a animal, don't seek people on catastrophe, on wood, on mountain. For make this he take risk. His natural instinct and reaction, make him nose urine, track of animal, rummaging in the garbage. This is true for all dogs, not only for Czw because he have wolf ancestor.
Czw have more than a dog, "feel of pack". When you right train a Czw on cooperation mode, his dedication to the purpose of the pack (his work) is maximum, is extraordinary (i talk about research work). Wolf take also some risk for his pack.

Work dog than take a risk to cooperate with owner (his pack), for me is not a dumb dog.

[Morian]

Originally Posted by z Peronówki

You can change the dog, you can change his "publicity" - but what you can not change is the genetic.

but then how to be sure that it is genetic? does this "shy" (or "agressive") gene exist? for example - my second dog. i don't know is it genetic or he just wasn't socialized or or or... (and there iare no doubts if we try to evaluate his behavior... ) one more example. shy parent and its pup - will we ever find out was he genetically shy or he just copied his parent's behavior? etc etc etc. it's too unclear. we can only trust when it's impossible to check cause we can not know for sure why is some dog shy or agressive etc. we can only listen its story from its breeder or owner. and yes, there the legends start

[jasmine]

Originally Posted by z Peronówki

You can change the dog, you can change his "publicity" - but what you can not change is the genetic.

This sentense sounds realy good...but please try to explain us the meaning!
And I'm just wondering how could we measured just the simply genetical behaviour.........


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