Artificial insemination only solution for the breed in spain?

carlos2207 · 31-08-2009, 14:17

I am agree with Ina and Kaiku and Wildenmorgen. Certainly the AI is not perfect and will have some problems. But I think that the AI if it is doing correctly is the best options for the countries that not have many quality wolfdogs.

To go to the other countries with the female for to do the mate is very stressfull for the female and is very probabily that is not pregnat. This summer I went with Emba to Praha for to do one mate and when I arrived to Spain the fly company losed Emba. And the next day I recupered Emba. More than 24 hours one animal in one transportin without water.

Many people not want the AI. I contacted with many breders for to do the AI and ALL not want to do de AI. Is better that the breders of Spain repeat many times the same litter? Is this the better???? In what year we lives?? Sincerely I don´t understand it

Juniorwolf · 31-08-2009, 16:47

I travel many times with my dogs 12-24 hours(by train), just for shows, exams and holiday and I never have any problems with stress, because my dogs are use to traveling ...all I want to say by this, all(most) dogs can be trained for everything, if the owner want it strong enough

...another option could be to pay the owner of the stud dog to travel as I think stress would not have any big effect on the stud dogs performance and it that way you would eleminate the risks by stressing the female in such a way that she will not stay pregnant.

Just some thoughts !

Rolf

Nebulosa · 31-08-2009, 19:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wildenmorgen

I guess another concern might be false identity of the male (in trying to breed mixes, perhaps...

) Is there any kind of DNA test requirement (to establish verified parents) from the FCI with AI? In the US, it is required of imported sperm (and maybe also domestic, I forget...) and also imported dogs (who breed naturally) to have a valid DNA result from both parents before the AKC will register a litter.

ARTIFICIAL INSEMINATION

13. Artificial insemination is not to be used on animals which have not reproduced naturally before. Exceptions (either the male or the female has not yet reproduced naturally) can be made by the national kennel clubs in certain cases. In the event the bitch is to be artificially inseminated, the veterinary surgeon collecting the stud dog’s sperm must provide a written certificate to the organisation which keeps the stud book with which the litter is to be registered stating that the fresh or frozen sperm was indeed produced by the agreed stud dog. In addition, the stud dog agent has to give, free of charge, the documents listed at Art.8 (a-g) to the owner of the bitch.

The costs for collecting the sperm and performing the insemination are charged to the owner of the bitch. The veterinary surgeon performing the insemination has to confirm to the organisation which keeps the stud book that the bitch has been artificially inseminated with the sperm of the stud dog originally foreseen. This certificate should also include the place and date of the insemination, the name and studbook registration number of the bitch and the name and address of the owner of the bitch.

The owner of the stud dog from which the semen was taken must provide a signed stud service certificate to the owner of the bitch in addition to the veterinary surgeon’s certificate.

... So ended that its up to the breeder ask the DNA, but even if it not be truth, the situation will be really complicate because it will put in cause the credibility of the vet which collected the semen.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rolf

I travel many times with my dogs 12-24 hours(by train), just for shows, exams and holiday and I never have any problems with stress, because my dogs are use to traveling ...all I want to say by this, all(most) dogs can be trained for everything, if the owner want it strong enough

You see, I have no problems at all to travel with my dogs in the car, trains and land transport, independant of the time it need, the main problem are airports, not all companies are experienced in travel with animals, not all airports in the world gives real attention to the dogs and are prepared for receive animals, as sometimes we can see pretty confusing situations, like the one mentionated by carlos.
Anyway dogs with the size of a addult CzW canot travel in the cabin, they go alone, in a box, passing for a very different pressure, speed and so on on the up and down of the airplane, shakes in the air because the turbulence, with the box handled by some different people, putted in a moving giant car together with the baggage ( sometimes more than 2 times, because the conections), believe me, its a very difficult situation for even think in training, no coment about the stress of all that.

In truth, If I live in europe I would go by car everywhere finding all so close, so mate dogs would be no problem, but I really can't be used as exemple.

Quote:

...another option could be to pay the owner of the stud dog to travel as I think stress would not have any big effect on the stud dogs performance and it that way you would eleminate the risks by stressing the female in such a way that she will not stay pregnant.

Just some thoughts !

It would be nice, but remembering that not all stud dog owners are breeders and have idea about the breed situation, selection and so on... not all stud dogs owners have time enough or even possibility to travel all that suddenly ( because the time we know the male must comes its pretty close to the one it must be already there for mate) only for the dog make "sex", because someone that he never saw in the life, that live in the another side of europe, or even of the world, need it for the breed sake.

Juniorwolf · 31-08-2009, 19:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nebulosa

You see, I have no problems at all to travel with my dogs in the car, trains and land transport, independant of the time it need, the main problem are airports, not all companies are experienced in travel with animals, not all airports in the world gives real attention to the dogs and are prepared for receive animals, as sometimes we can see pretty confusing situations, like the one mentionated by carlos.
Anyway dogs with the size of a addult CzW canot travel in the cabin, they go alone, in a box, passing for a very different pressure, speed and so on on the up and down of the airplane, shakes in the air because the turbulence, with the box handled by some different people, putted in a moving giant car together with the baggage ( sometimes more than 2 times, because the conections), believe me, its a very difficult situation for even think in training, no coment about the stress of all that.

I think, in Europe it is possible in most cases, to find a company who have experience with animals, maybe it will be more expensive and maybe it will not be a national company, but I think it is only in rare cases that it will not be possible to find a company who have experience with animals, but ofcourse I don`t know the exact situation in all European countries, so maybe I am wrong ?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nebulosa

In truth, If I live in europe I would go by car everywhere finding all so close, so mate dogs would be no problem, but I really can't be used as exemple.

I too think in most cases it will be possible to go by car to a stud dog in Europe, just like you wrote. ....I fully agree with you, that you can not be used as an example in this case

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nebulosa

It would be nice, but remembering that not all stud dog owners are breeders and have idea about the breed situation, selection and so on... not all stud dogs owners have time enough or even possibility to travel all that suddenly ( because the time we know the male must comes its pretty close to the one it must be already there for mate) only for the dog make "sex", because someone that he never saw in the life, that live in the another side of europe, or even of the world, need it for the breed sake.

Nobody said breeding should be easy, but I think there is better options than AI ....at least inside Europe

carlos2207 · 04-09-2009, 15:38

Sincerely I am surprised that people think that is more better to travel 6000 km with one wolfdog female in the car than to send by fly the sperm and do IA. Sincerely I am very surpresed

Juniorwolf · 04-09-2009, 17:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by carlos2207

Sincerely I am surprised that people think that is more better to travel 6000 km with one wolfdog female in the car than to send by fly the sperm and do IA. Sincerely I am very surpresed

Personally I were speaking about Europe ...if you travel 6000km from Spain, you will no longer be in Europe !
I don`t see what the problem is about traveling 2500km by car ...if your dog is use to traveling by car ?

Rolf

carlos2207 · 04-09-2009, 18:28

Ok Rolf, you have one opinion but I don´t agree with you opinion. Only one question, if you are a breeder and you have your job, why you prefer to travel 6000km in car and you leave your job (is very complicate because you don´t know when your female is in heat and you cannot to plane your hollidays) and never you would use AI?

Do you think that is posible? do you think that the spanish breders will do your recomendations?

Pavel · 07-09-2009, 07:17

One notice only :

FCI International breeding rules
"...Artificial insemination is not to be used on animals which have not reproduced naturally before..."

Please dont break basic breeding rules with our lovely dogs !!!

kaiku · 07-09-2009, 19:22

Pavel, I'm totally agree.

Pavel · 07-09-2009, 19:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by kaiku

Pavel, I'm totally agree.

Its not for agree or disagree, its simply rule, what must keep all CsW breeders as well.

kaiku · 07-09-2009, 19:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pavel

Its not for agree or disagree, its simply rule, what must keep all CsW breeders as well.

I'm agree with not break the rules.

Nebulosa · 07-09-2009, 20:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pavel

One notice only :

FCI International breeding rules
"...Artificial insemination is not to be used on animals which have not reproduced naturally before..."

Please dont break basic breeding rules with our lovely dogs !!!

And only lack this part:

"Exceptions (either the male or the female has not yet reproduced naturally) can be made by the national kennel clubs in certain cases."

So, they can do it even if the male and the female still wasn't used on breeding, but they will need the agreement of the national club in this case.

Anyway, I disagree completly to make AI in dogs because "its too far away" when you can still go by car.Sorry but travel is a huge oportunity for breeder to meet other dogs and compare the quality, see what you need improve in your country, for me its a completly nonsense you use IA for avoid travel because its "too far away by car", sorry but travel by car is compeltly safe for you go and mate, as you have no difference in preassure, no different people handling the dogs box like a potatoe bag and, if the dog is well trained, no stress for the dog ( that mainly enjoy the trip).
As breeder people may have idea that will expend a lot of time and money for mate their females, its breeding, its improve the breed and its needed, if you cant or you don't want because " its too difficult as its far" so, don't breed, when you choose the breed you knew it was a new breed in your country and that needs a lot of work still, teorically everyone imagined that they will need to travel a long way for mates and bring new blood, so the road and the car isn't somethign new.

Tuky · 08-09-2009, 16:42

there is a saying that he says: " wanting is to be able " (querer es poder in spanish)

If it is wanted you can do in not alone car 2000 km, but the triple one if you propose it ... but it is necessary to think that they not all have the possibility of saying in the work that they cannot go because it has to go with his bitch to X km to mount it with a male

Let's not speak about the expenses that it bears.

This post began with the situation of Spain (as it is said here, Spain is different (to Europe). Few litters they have been I begin and 2 of the breeding ground more ancient are only repetitions...

In other races it is quite common to do it (both with refreshed and frozen semen), and common practice in the veterinary clinics (it is necessary to have special products but the same companies of transport of semen they usually give it)

One does not ask that they all should do IA, only they attract attention of us the rellazo towards her, being that it gives good results and helps to the genetic local changeability

Pavel · 08-09-2009, 16:53

If everybody buy first CsW and want to breeding in the future, then must know any rules and eventually problems with it. Buying the dog just with planning, that I must have some speciality or breaking generaly breeding rules is, polite to say, miserable

.

carlos2207 · 08-09-2009, 17:09

I like very much this post, I see very intelligent and razonable argument for not use the AI.

Juniorwolf · 08-09-2009, 17:19

I think it is quit interesting, that non of you who have been speaking for AI, have commented the other solutions, now when you have so big problems by traveling to the stud dog...

Have you even tried to ask owners of stud dogs to fly the dog to you, so you don`t have to travel ?
Have you concidered to buy a stud dog(or more), which can be used more than once and with different females ?

Greetings Rolf

31-08-2009, 14:17	#1
carlos2207 Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 48	I am agree with Ina and Kaiku and Wildenmorgen. Certainly the AI is not perfect and will have some problems. But I think that the AI if it is doing correctly is the best options for the countries that not have many quality wolfdogs. To go to the other countries with the female for to do the mate is very stressfull for the female and is very probabily that is not pregnat. This summer I went with Emba to Praha for to do one mate and when I arrived to Spain the fly company losed Emba. And the next day I recupered Emba. More than 24 hours one animal in one transportin without water. Many people not want the AI. I contacted with many breders for to do the AI and ALL not want to do de AI. Is better that the breders of Spain repeat many times the same litter? Is this the better???? In what year we lives?? Sincerely I don´t understand it Last edited by carlos2207; 31-08-2009 at 14:55.

31-08-2009, 16:47	#2
Juniorwolf Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 575	I travel many times with my dogs 12-24 hours(by train), just for shows, exams and holiday and I never have any problems with stress, because my dogs are use to traveling ...all I want to say by this, all(most) dogs can be trained for everything, if the owner want it strong enough ...another option could be to pay the owner of the stud dog to travel as I think stress would not have any big effect on the stud dogs performance and it that way you would eleminate the risks by stressing the female in such a way that she will not stay pregnant. Just some thoughts ! Rolf Last edited by Juniorwolf; 31-08-2009 at 16:53. Reason: more text

04-09-2009, 18:28	#7
carlos2207 Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 48	Ok Rolf, you have one opinion but I don´t agree with you opinion. Only one question, if you are a breeder and you have your job, why you prefer to travel 6000km in car and you leave your job (is very complicate because you don´t know when your female is in heat and you cannot to plane your hollidays) and never you would use AI? Do you think that is posible? do you think that the spanish breders will do your recomendations? Last edited by carlos2207; 04-09-2009 at 18:50.

08-09-2009, 16:42	#13
Tuky Moderator Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Cadiz Posts: 294	there is a saying that he says: " wanting is to be able " (querer es poder in spanish) If it is wanted you can do in not alone car 2000 km, but the triple one if you propose it ... but it is necessary to think that they not all have the possibility of saying in the work that they cannot go because it has to go with his bitch to X km to mount it with a male Let's not speak about the expenses that it bears. This post began with the situation of Spain (as it is said here, Spain is different (to Europe). Few litters they have been I begin and 2 of the breeding ground more ancient are only repetitions... In other races it is quite common to do it (both with refreshed and frozen semen), and common practice in the veterinary clinics (it is necessary to have special products but the same companies of transport of semen they usually give it) One does not ask that they all should do IA, only they attract attention of us the rellazo towards her, being that it gives good results and helps to the genetic local changeability __________________ solo con los lobos se aprende a aullar

04-09-2009, 15:38	#5
carlos2207 Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 48	Sincerely I am surprised that people think that is more better to travel 6000 km with one wolfdog female in the car than to send by fly the sperm and do IA. Sincerely I am very surpresed

07-09-2009, 07:17	#8
Pavel Moderator Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 2,190	One notice only : FCI International breeding rules "...Artificial insemination is not to be used on animals which have not reproduced naturally before..." Please dont break basic breeding rules with our lovely dogs !!!

07-09-2009, 19:22	#9
kaiku www.lagretosa.jimdo.com Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: León Posts: 30	Pavel, I'm totally agree.

08-09-2009, 16:53	#14
Pavel Moderator Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 2,190	If everybody buy first CsW and want to breeding in the future, then must know any rules and eventually problems with it. Buying the dog just with planning, that I must have some speciality or breaking generaly breeding rules is, polite to say, miserable .

08-09-2009, 17:09	#15
carlos2207 Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 48	I like very much this post, I see very intelligent and razonable argument for not use the AI.

08-09-2009, 17:19	#16
Juniorwolf Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 575	I think it is quit interesting, that non of you who have been speaking for AI, have commented the other solutions, now when you have so big problems by traveling to the stud dog... Have you even tried to ask owners of stud dogs to fly the dog to you, so you don`t have to travel ? Have you concidered to buy a stud dog(or more), which can be used more than once and with different females ? Greetings Rolf