Artificial insemination only solution for the breed in spain?

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

The point why I am not a fan of regular used AI (in the here discussed case it has a good reason) is that in very many breeds it is used because the dogs aren´t able any longer to reproduce without this help. The bitches don´t show a normal heat or fight the male, the males aren´t able to get on the back of the female in mating position, the males aren´t interested in the bitches and so on. These problems are heritable to a very high amount, the dogs are kept in breeding with AI out of the usual reasons, being a multichampion etc.
If you use AI as a normal way to reproduce these problems are likely to occure sooner or later and being realistic I don´t think that the owners of these dogs will take them out of breeding.

Ina

[GalomyOak]

Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn

...If you use AI as a normal way to reproduce these problems are likely to occure sooner or later and being realistic I don´t think that the owners of these dogs will take them out of breeding.

Ina

This is a very good point also...one that I had never really considered. I totally agree with this point. But, I guess maybe it would be less of a problem with established stud/brood dogs who had proven themselves in the "natural" way before being used for AI? Maybe this could be a criterion for males and females if AI were to start being used (and only in cases of distance, not to mask a breeding or genetic problem) within the breed...I guess once again, it would come back to the regulation of an international committee...

I guess another concern might be false identity of the male (in trying to breed mixes, perhaps...) Is there any kind of DNA test requirement (to establish verified parents) from the FCI with AI? In the US, it is required of imported sperm (and maybe also domestic, I forget...) and also imported dogs (who breed naturally) to have a valid DNA result from both parents before the AKC will register a litter.

[kaiku]

I agree with Wildenmorge. I think that we shouldn't take the habit of making the AI when it comes to litters in the same country, I don't agree to AI, but when there is much distance in between, shouldn't be ruled out and more in a country like ours, with very few CSW.

Greetings

[carlos2207]

I am agree with Ina and Kaiku and Wildenmorgen. Certainly the AI is not perfect and will have some problems. But I think that the AI if it is doing correctly is the best options for the countries that not have many quality wolfdogs.

To go to the other countries with the female for to do the mate is very stressfull for the female and is very probabily that is not pregnat. This summer I went with Emba to Praha for to do one mate and when I arrived to Spain the fly company losed Emba. And the next day I recupered Emba. More than 24 hours one animal in one transportin without water.

Many people not want the AI. I contacted with many breders for to do the AI and ALL not want to do de AI. Is better that the breders of Spain repeat many times the same litter? Is this the better???? In what year we lives?? Sincerely I don´t understand it

[Juniorwolf]

I travel many times with my dogs 12-24 hours(by train), just for shows, exams and holiday and I never have any problems with stress, because my dogs are use to traveling ...all I want to say by this, all(most) dogs can be trained for everything, if the owner want it strong enough
...another option could be to pay the owner of the stud dog to travel as I think stress would not have any big effect on the stud dogs performance and it that way you would eleminate the risks by stressing the female in such a way that she will not stay pregnant.

Just some thoughts !

Rolf

[Nebulosa]

Originally Posted by Wildenmorgen

I guess another concern might be false identity of the male (in trying to breed mixes, perhaps...) Is there any kind of DNA test requirement (to establish verified parents) from the FCI with AI? In the US, it is required of imported sperm (and maybe also domestic, I forget...) and also imported dogs (who breed naturally) to have a valid DNA result from both parents before the AKC will register a litter.

ARTIFICIAL INSEMINATION

13. Artificial insemination is not to be used on animals which have not reproduced naturally before. Exceptions (either the male or the female has not yet reproduced naturally) can be made by the national kennel clubs in certain cases. In the event the bitch is to be artificially inseminated, the veterinary surgeon collecting the stud dog’s sperm must provide a written certificate to the organisation which keeps the stud book with which the litter is to be registered stating that the fresh or frozen sperm was indeed produced by the agreed stud dog. In addition, the stud dog agent has to give, free of charge, the documents listed at Art.8 (a-g) to the owner of the bitch.

The costs for collecting the sperm and performing the insemination are charged to the owner of the bitch. The veterinary surgeon performing the insemination has to confirm to the organisation which keeps the stud book that the bitch has been artificially inseminated with the sperm of the stud dog originally foreseen. This certificate should also include the place and date of the insemination, the name and studbook registration number of the bitch and the name and address of the owner of the bitch.

The owner of the stud dog from which the semen was taken must provide a signed stud service certificate to the owner of the bitch in addition to the veterinary surgeon’s certificate.


... So ended that its up to the breeder ask the DNA, but even if it not be truth, the situation will be really complicate because it will put in cause the credibility of the vet which collected the semen.

Originally Posted by rolf

I travel many times with my dogs 12-24 hours(by train), just for shows, exams and holiday and I never have any problems with stress, because my dogs are use to traveling ...all I want to say by this, all(most) dogs can be trained for everything, if the owner want it strong enough

You see, I have no problems at all to travel with my dogs in the car, trains and land transport, independant of the time it need, the main problem are airports, not all companies are experienced in travel with animals, not all airports in the world gives real attention to the dogs and are prepared for receive animals, as sometimes we can see pretty confusing situations, like the one mentionated by carlos.
Anyway dogs with the size of a addult CzW canot travel in the cabin, they go alone, in a box, passing for a very different pressure, speed and so on on the up and down of the airplane, shakes in the air because the turbulence, with the box handled by some different people, putted in a moving giant car together with the baggage ( sometimes more than 2 times, because the conections), believe me, its a very difficult situation for even think in training, no coment about the stress of all that.

In truth, If I live in europe I would go by car everywhere finding all so close, so mate dogs would be no problem, but I really can't be used as exemple.

...another option could be to pay the owner of the stud dog to travel as I think stress would not have any big effect on the stud dogs performance and it that way you would eleminate the risks by stressing the female in such a way that she will not stay pregnant.

Just some thoughts !

It would be nice, but remembering that not all stud dog owners are breeders and have idea about the breed situation, selection and so on... not all stud dogs owners have time enough or even possibility to travel all that suddenly ( because the time we know the male must comes its pretty close to the one it must be already there for mate) only for the dog make "sex", because someone that he never saw in the life, that live in the another side of europe, or even of the world, need it for the breed sake.

[Juniorwolf]

Originally Posted by Nebulosa

You see, I have no problems at all to travel with my dogs in the car, trains and land transport, independant of the time it need, the main problem are airports, not all companies are experienced in travel with animals, not all airports in the world gives real attention to the dogs and are prepared for receive animals, as sometimes we can see pretty confusing situations, like the one mentionated by carlos.
Anyway dogs with the size of a addult CzW canot travel in the cabin, they go alone, in a box, passing for a very different pressure, speed and so on on the up and down of the airplane, shakes in the air because the turbulence, with the box handled by some different people, putted in a moving giant car together with the baggage ( sometimes more than 2 times, because the conections), believe me, its a very difficult situation for even think in training, no coment about the stress of all that.

I think, in Europe it is possible in most cases, to find a company who have experience with animals, maybe it will be more expensive and maybe it will not be a national company, but I think it is only in rare cases that it will not be possible to find a company who have experience with animals, but ofcourse I don`t know the exact situation in all European countries, so maybe I am wrong ?

Originally Posted by Nebulosa

In truth, If I live in europe I would go by car everywhere finding all so close, so mate dogs would be no problem, but I really can't be used as exemple.

I too think in most cases it will be possible to go by car to a stud dog in Europe, just like you wrote. ....I fully agree with you, that you can not be used as an example in this case

Originally Posted by Nebulosa

It would be nice, but remembering that not all stud dog owners are breeders and have idea about the breed situation, selection and so on... not all stud dogs owners have time enough or even possibility to travel all that suddenly ( because the time we know the male must comes its pretty close to the one it must be already there for mate) only for the dog make "sex", because someone that he never saw in the life, that live in the another side of europe, or even of the world, need it for the breed sake.

Nobody said breeding should be easy, but I think there is better options than AI ....at least inside Europe

[Pavel]

One notice only :

FCI International breeding rules
"...Artificial insemination is not to be used on animals which have not reproduced naturally before..."

Please dont break basic breeding rules with our lovely dogs !!!

[kaiku]

Pavel, I'm totally agree.

[Pavel]

Originally Posted by kaiku

Pavel, I'm totally agree.

Its not for agree or disagree, its simply rule, what must keep all CsW breeders as well.

[Nebulosa]

Originally Posted by Pavel

One notice only :

FCI International breeding rules
"...Artificial insemination is not to be used on animals which have not reproduced naturally before..."

Please dont break basic breeding rules with our lovely dogs !!!

And only lack this part:

"Exceptions (either the male or the female has not yet reproduced naturally) can be made by the national kennel clubs in certain cases."

So, they can do it even if the male and the female still wasn't used on breeding, but they will need the agreement of the national club in this case.

Anyway, I disagree completly to make AI in dogs because "its too far away" when you can still go by car.Sorry but travel is a huge oportunity for breeder to meet other dogs and compare the quality, see what you need improve in your country, for me its a completly nonsense you use IA for avoid travel because its "too far away by car", sorry but travel by car is compeltly safe for you go and mate, as you have no difference in preassure, no different people handling the dogs box like a potatoe bag and, if the dog is well trained, no stress for the dog ( that mainly enjoy the trip).
As breeder people may have idea that will expend a lot of time and money for mate their females, its breeding, its improve the breed and its needed, if you cant or you don't want because " its too difficult as its far" so, don't breed, when you choose the breed you knew it was a new breed in your country and that needs a lot of work still, teorically everyone imagined that they will need to travel a long way for mates and bring new blood, so the road and the car isn't somethign new.

[Tuky]

there is a saying that he says: " wanting is to be able " (querer es poder in spanish)

If it is wanted you can do in not alone car 2000 km, but the triple one if you propose it ... but it is necessary to think that they not all have the possibility of saying in the work that they cannot go because it has to go with his bitch to X km to mount it with a male

Let's not speak about the expenses that it bears.

This post began with the situation of Spain (as it is said here, Spain is different (to Europe). Few litters they have been I begin and 2 of the breeding ground more ancient are only repetitions...

In other races it is quite common to do it (both with refreshed and frozen semen), and common practice in the veterinary clinics (it is necessary to have special products but the same companies of transport of semen they usually give it)

One does not ask that they all should do IA, only they attract attention of us the rellazo towards her, being that it gives good results and helps to the genetic local changeability