Misleading article about Hybrids and Wolfdogs

[Puma]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...half-wolf.html

Here we go again...

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

Hi,

why is this article misleading?
The last sentence of Dogs Today's editor, Ms Beverley Cudd is absolutely correct and speaks for itself.

"Wolves are wonderful and much maligned in children's fiction, but they are hugely different from dogs and should be kept separate.
Hybrids are a potential disaster area."

Or do you mean misleading in the sense of confusing the two recognized breeds with high content hybrids?
Then you're right, more dangerous than hybrids, at least to our breed are people like this Richardson guy.
Alone his following sentence "The big bad wolf is misleading." in connection with his statement demonstrates that he hasn't got a clue what he's drivelling on about.

Michael

[Puma]

The title, how catchy it may be, is quite misleading in my opinion.

And the fact, that in one sentence, hybrids are mentioned together with Saarloos and Czechoslovakian wolfdogs, makes a lot of people, not familiar with our wolfdogs, believe that hybrids AND wolfdogs are a danger to humans.

It is these 2 sentences, that I do not like:

""
“The hybrid - along with the Czechoslovakian wolfdog and the sarloos - are difficult dogs, but not in a dangerous s ense.”
However, Beverley Cuddy, editor of Dogs Today, added: “The relaxation in the law seems madness. To live in a domestic situation with a part-wolf is insane.
""
Maybe misleading isn't the right word, but simplistic it is to me.

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

Originally Posted by Puma

The title, how catchy it may be, is quite misleading in my opinion.

And the fact, that in one sentence, hybrids are mentioned together with Saarloos and Czechoslovakian wolfdogs, makes a lot of people, not familiar with our wolfdogs, believe that hybrids AND wolfdogs are a danger to humans.

I'm absolutely with you.

Michael

[Rona]

Originally Posted by Puma

Maybe misleading isn't the right word, but simplistic it is to me.

I agree with you, too!

[Nebulosa]

For everything we could see here with the CzW and all the polemic and problems UK breeders already bring for the breed, I start to wonder if wasn't one huge mistake unbann the breed and hybrids from UK.

This richardson is a nice exemple of what i'm talking about, with a small search on google we can arrive at the conclusion that seems its almost impossible to this people breed a breed of dog, all they talk about " wolf look a like" breeding several "breeds" together with CzW, utonagans, Saarloos, wolfhybrids and so on, its simply crazy to me.

[hanninadina]

Before you discuss in a not objectiv way please read this

http://www.defra.gov.uk/wildlife-pet...a-wolfdogs.pdf


and the dog attack from Merrit Clifton

http://www.tegenpitjes.info/biblioth...lifton2008.pdf

If you read and understand what there is written you will understand why in great britain it is allowed to have wolfdogs from F 3 up.

Every csw is more aggressiv than a normal american wolfdog. Sorry to say, what Richardson say, that they are more social is absolutely right. And he expresses directly that in the right place, with the right people and in the right environment! That means clearly that wolfdogs are not for everyone!

And sorry to say "hybrids" do not attack adults. And with children you never should let a child alone. I have one example the danish dog from Heinz Rudolf Kunze a famous german singer and song writer killed in 1998 the 3 year old child from a friend who did know the dog perfectly and even the child!

In Cliftons dog attack you can see, that breeds like american pit bull, rottweiler or the northern breeds (malamute, husky, chowchow) killed quite more people than hybrids! And they do kill everything: adults and children!

So if you keep the children save there will be no problem! I am sorry to say I have no problems with my two csw but I have less problems with my american wolfdog! And all people I know who have american wolfdogs do have the same experiences!

The people in great britain had very experienced professors who did work and live with over hundreds wolfdogs and dozens of wolves and they all state that from F3 up you will have a dog.

Please remember we do have here - may be not now - F 4 csw like Kondor. And of course all we know he is (was) an aggressiv wolfdog hybrid! But the aggressivness did come from german shepard and not from the wolf!

Christian

[Joswolf]

Most adult and socialised wolves do attack people who misbehave. All the socialised wolves are difficult to let strange people savely in the fences.
Wolfhybrides can attack as well. Some weeks ago some did in Holland and are taken away now. So I do not agree that socialised wolves are harmless. Likely F1 are also not harmless. You should not act as if it's easy becouse it is not.
Jos

[Margo]

Originally Posted by hanninadina

And of course all we know he is (was) an aggressiv wolfdog hybrid!

One question: DID YOU EVER MEET KONDOR? Do you really know what are you talking about? Sorry but I know this dog and I met him several times. All you can say about him is that he is a dog doing perfectly him work - doing this what the dogs was trained for....

[Rona]

Originally Posted by Joswolf

Most adult and socialised wolves do attack people who misbehave. All the socialised wolves are difficult to let strange people savely in the fences.
Wolfhybrides can attack as well. Some weeks ago some did in Holland and are taken away now. So I do not agree that socialised wolves are harmless. Likely F1 are also not harmless. You should not act as if it's easy becouse it is not.
Jos

I consider humans to be defninitely less harmless than dogs or wolfdogs Just take statistics and study violence rates in any society...

[Joswolf]

And a bad article. Quote, "These are sarloos, from a cross between a timber wolf and a German shepherd".
Was it to much trouble to get good info about the Saarloos. It was a European Wolf.
Jos

[tikaani]

I quite agree, it is a missleading article and dose no breeds any good. like any dog wolfdogs have the portential to atack, that is were good ownership and upraising comes in. i have to kids and i have never had a problem, BUT i also wouldnt leave mine alone with my kids, thats just bad parenting and askin for trouble, and as for charging £5000 for a wolfdog , thats just rediculas if its true very greedy. the problem is all the crossing with high performance dogs like inuits i think, having hyper dogs crossed with any sort of wolfdog is askin for trouble in my opinion....

[Joswolf]

Qoute- i also wouldnt leave mine alone with my kids, thats just bad parenting and askin for trouble
I don't agree here. I let my Saarloos wolfdogs without ane problems allone with my kids.
Jos

[tikaani]

Originally Posted by Joswolf

Qoute- i also wouldnt leave mine alone with my kids, thats just bad parenting and askin for trouble
I don't agree here. I let my Saarloos wolfdogs without ane problems allone with my kids.
Jos

i wouldnt leave my kids with any sort of dog on there own, there only 7 and a year old and wouldnt be fair on them or the dogs, would be to easy for them to hurt the dogs, and although i doubt the dogs would retaliate, why take the chance. besides whith articles like this at the mo, could you amagin if the dog did, even if it was just a nip or scratch when playin, the media would go crazzy. better to be safe then sorry at the mo, and with all the cross breeding goin on here with inuits and sellin them left and right to any one, some of us have to be responcible

[Rona]

Originally Posted by tikaani

i wouldnt leave my kids with any sort of dog on there own, (...) better to be safe then sorry at the mo, and with all the cross breeding goin on here with inuits and sellin them left and right to any one, some of us have to be responcible

Very wise words. It's not only the issue of a dog hurting a kid, but also a kid hurting the dog .

My friends own a very "predictable" GSD. Once, on entering the room where their little girl was playing with the dog they saw a hairising scene: the girl was screaming and her arm was is the dog's teeth. No blood, no violence, just a strong grip on the side of the dog. The father's reaction was appropriate: "What did you do to him???". The girl admitted later that she was trying to put mascara on the dog's lashes. His reaction was rational and meant to stop her. Luckily, the GSD was a wise, old and sweet family pet. But how could one be sure that every dog would react in this way?

[Joswolf]

My kids or house dogs don't hurt eathother. There are no worrys. My son is 8 and nows how to behave. He grew up between wolfdogs. We live together in harmony and do so for a long time. The wolf and hybrides live seperaten outside.
Jos
Bruno with the wolves

[Rona]

Originally Posted by Joswolf

My kids or house dogs don't hurt eathother. There are no worrys. My son is 8 and nows how to behave. He grew up between wolfdogs. We live together in harmony and do so for a long time. The wolf and hybrides live seperaten outside.

Lovely photo, but I understood tikaani meant the principle. If you declare publicly that CSV are safe with kids, 99% or more parents will still observe basic safety procedures. But there will always be a fraction of irresponsible people who will take such declaration literally and take the risk when they absolutely shouldn't, i.e. with a newly aquired dog and a toddler.

Besides, I belive it's always better to be safe, than sorry

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

Coming back to the topic...

Originally Posted by hanninadina

Every csw is more aggressiv than a normal american wolfdog. Sorry to say, what Richardson say, that they are more social is absolutely right. And he expresses directly that in the right place, with the right people and in the right environment! That means clearly that wolfdogs are not for everyone!

And sorry to say "hybrids" do not attack adults. And with children you never should let a child alone. I have one example the danish dog from Heinz Rudolf Kunze a famous german singer and song writer killed in 1998 the 3 year old child from a friend who did know the dog perfectly and even the child!

I

Originally Posted by Joswolf

Most adult and socialised wolves do attack people who misbehave. All the socialised wolves are difficult to let strange people savely in the fences.
Wolfhybrides can attack as well. Some weeks ago some did in Holland and are taken away now. So I do not agree that socialised wolves are harmless. Likely F1 are also not harmless. You should not act as if it's easy becouse it is not.
Jos

Jos is absolutely right. And I get more and more fed up with advertising hybrids as American Wolfdogs which are no breed but crossings created for showing off.
In the region with the most American Wolfdogs there are a lot of problems and a lot of people who have to take care of those problems. Wolf-Hybrids are banned in several States of the US. And there have been adults attacked!

Some very good articles, the first one by Monty Sloan:
http://www.wolfpark.org/wolfdogs/Poster_section5.html
http://www.arkanimals.com/ark/ws_3_w...g_hybrids.html, this one is a very good site that collects a lot of sources by a behaviourist with quite a lot of experience, all 8 sites are worth reading, not at least the site describing the "breeding"-situation of American Wolfdogs.
http://www.nal.usda.gov/awic/newslet...4/5n4wille.htm

All of them include the bite statistics that are mentioned in the UK link, but show, though obviously only for people that are able to work with statistics, a different picture than this link was posted for. If you take in count that wolfdogs are not allowed in several states, that owners being in trouble tend to say it is a normal dog (also well known from Germany) and that most wolf-hybrids are kept in a very different way to breeds like PitBulls and German Shepherds this statistic doesn´t show that wolf-hybrids are more save with people than other breeds.

Our wolves that have been socialized with children showed exactly the same reaction as Imbo, described by Monty Sloan, they show clear prey behaviour against children now. None of our CSW would even think about this kind of behaviour, a child stays a child even running and screaming. They also don´t accept any more strangers within their inner territory though they are still very loving and kind with us. Who has ever seen a wolf attacking anything in social context knows how extremely fast they change from very nice submissive behaviour to severe attacking, in a very different way to dogs (non of our wolves have ever attacked any human this way, to prevent any gossip right before the beginning!!).
They are only save with people who are able to forget their loving emotions against them far enough to realize that they are wild animals that are created to survive in a cruel nature. This especially makes them and their offspring unsuitable for pets especially for the people that long to keep them that much.

And also is the time a high content wolfdog is matured mostly not the usual 2-3 years but very often much later. That he doesn´t show any kind of aggression in its first years doesn´t mean anything.
There are very few exceptions of course.

And last but not least are the "American Wolfdogs" that are discussed as examples here not only quite young but also very shy and anxious with people they don´t know. They mostly only have a short period of not-shy behaviour but grow out some time later. That makes them of course easier to handle at first sight compared to a not anxious dog but also makes them less predictable and leads to a life in constant stress - what their owners mostly don´t seem to realize in the slightest way, but what is a severe case of animal-abuse for me.

All in all is the article not that wrong, only the fact that CSW and Saarloos a put into the same category is a fatal mislead, but an understandable one if you look at the breeding situation in the UK.

Ina

[Joswolf]

Originally Posted by Rona

Lovely photo, but I understood tikaani meant the principle. If you declare publicly that CSV are safe with kids, 99% or more parents will still observe basic safety procedures. But there will always be a fraction of irresponsible people who will take such declaration literally and take the risk when they absolutely shouldn't, i.e. with a newly aquired dog and a toddler.

Besides, I belive it's always better to be safe, than sorry

I never declared to even have CWD couse i don't. A cwd is selected to use afression, that was his job. My Saarloos i can let without a problem with my kids. So it is save.
And i am not responsible for a fraction of irresponsible people who will take such declaration literally and take the risk. Altho i did not declare such a thing. I have Saarloos and that is a dog, and not a wolf or hybrid. (Like a CWD).
If you breed a dog with wolf and after that mix with other dogs the wolfpart dissapears. The problem is when you mix F1XF1. You can get more wolf and we want domesticated wolfdogs and no wild animals who act like a wolf. Then problems will come.
But my house dogs are dogs. Thats wat a Saarloos is.
Jos

[Mikael]

Originally Posted by Joswolf

Altho i did not declare such a thing. I have Saarloos and that is a dog, and not a wolf or hybrid. (Like a CWD).Jos

Hmmmmmmmmm...

Pure FCI CsV = about 27-32% Wolfblood

Pure FCI Saarloos = about 34 % Wolfblood

Source >>> http://www.amicale-chien-loup-tcheco...m/csvstat.html

Best regards / Mikael