Tamaskan CsW crossing

mijke · 29-10-2012, 22:03

@Rona: I really don’t know yet at this moment!

Also the board of the Dutch club was today shocked about the news of this planned CsW mix crossing of a Dutch breeder.

The club also confirms that kennel van Goverwelle have nothing to do with this!
It is very sad kennel van 't Aelse Sluske also harms the name of kennel van Goverwelle with using a female of them for this mix (instead of using a CsW of the breeding line of her own).

Shadowlands · 30-10-2012, 11:43

Advertising so blatently that you are planning to do this is shocking!

I wonder if it would be possible to petition the FCI to bring in a ruling whereby any kennel proven to crossbreed is 'struck off' permanently? It needs to be FCI wide, not dependant on individual country breed clubs.

Azazel · 30-10-2012, 21:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadowlands

Advertising so blatently that you are planning to do this is shocking!

nah.. it's just plain dumb...
Not so shocking when you know the breeder..

Ligerwolve2 · 31-10-2012, 10:15

Sorry I dont see the issue.

A new breed in the making with open stud books needs new blood. They SHOULD use dogs with a known history. So health and temperament is easier to predict.

How do you think the CzW came about? Careful crossbreeding.

Rona · 31-10-2012, 12:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ligerwolve2

Sorry I dont see the issue.

A new breed in the making with open stud books needs new blood. They SHOULD use dogs with a known history. So health and temperament is easier to predict.

How do you think the CzW came about? Careful crossbreeding.

I only hope you're joking

Comparing that unfortunate amateur cross to a carefully designed several-year-long scientific project, where massive funding, conditions for hybrid training and selection + cooperation with dog trainers, top specialists in kynology, veterinary and biology, etc. were secured, in my opinion is a sign of ...ignorance.

No early hybrids in PS kennel in former Czechlovakia were let into private hands. Early experiments to let the CSVs live in private homes occured after a few generations of careful selection. Here the litter is advertised as any other.

How can you be so naive as to speak about new breed creation?

BTW Where are Stephanie's diplomas in genetic studies or veterinary or biology? Where is the team of people ready do train and test the pups, to make selection decisions and neuter the pups that do not meet the expectations? How much experience does Stephanie have in dog training or breeding? How many healthy, typical pups has she bred? Where are the exam results of her dogs and dogs carrying her kennel name? And last, but not least:
has Slovakian Kennel Club, the guardian of the breed, agreed to use a pure CSV in such "experiment"?

I'm not sure what the legal situation in the Nethereland is, but in Poland such kennel would be banned from the FCI National Kennel Club, the female used for unethical breeding would legally become a mongrel i.e. could not participate in dog shows, or be bred on in the future - i.e. her litters would not be registered. What's more - the female could never be re-registered in another FCI affiliated KC member's name in the future. In other words - even if the "experiment" failed, the breeder would lose forever a nice female for honest, ethical breeding. Very risky enterprise!

Not to mention that she would lose trust and credibility of decent and honest CSV breeders all over the world, which is really hard to be regained.

Ligerwolve2 · 31-10-2012, 14:12

So what your saying is any breed that wasnt created by someone who is a scientist should not exist?

Im not saying that these things shouldnt be entered with extreme care. I think there is a huge amount of work that should be done before mating etc.

Perhaps you dont realise how common this is? New breeds are created all the time.

I would rather have imput into what is happening, help guide the individual to the best options rather than see them sneak behind my back and use the worst combination and then quit half way through and leave a trail of cross breeds.

Secondly you realise that CzWs while being a fantastic example of how to go about creating a breed is still seen as "new" and more of a fad and designer dog by some in the dog community. That others think CzW breeders are "amateur". I bet people just love hearing that. Bet it makes light of all the hard work that has gone into this wonderful breed. Im sure its quite far from the truth. Untill I hear from this person in question myself I would not go around labelling them as anything. Again I would rather steer them in the right direction which you wont get the chance to do if you come across as aggressive.

They may lose registry to start with but would they not then later be registered as a foundation bitch/dog?

One more time I think you will not stop this happening. All breeds see it. The question is how will you as a community handle this? By insulting another breed? By throwing a tantrum? Or by sharing some of your wisdom?

Whether you like the breed or not they are trying to create it and from what I understand they have used CzWs before.

Ligerwolve2 · 31-10-2012, 14:14

Also I think you are wrong that no early hybrids made their way into private hands, but I cant prove it at this time.

Rona · 31-10-2012, 15:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ligerwolve2

Perhaps you dont realise how common this is? New breeds are created all the time.

My students sometimes claim that there is nothing wrong in plagiarism, because others do it. Sorry, but such arguments do not appeal to me.

Personally I think that honest people should obey the rules of organisations and institutions, especially of those they volountarily belong to, whether this applies to dog breeding, or any other field.

I'm surprised, you have another opinion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ligerwolve2

By insulting another breed?

Who insulted which breed?

I have nothing against any breed, nor against mixes or mongrels, only against people who thoughtlessly produce them without considering the far effects of their deeds

.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ligerwolve2

Or by sharing some of your wisdom?

This is exactly what I did.

EOT

Rona · 30-10-2012, 13:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by mijke

Also the board of the Dutch club was today shocked about the news of this planned CsW mix crossing of a Dutch breeder.

No wonder the Dutch club is surprised. Maybe Stephanie K. counts on the effect, i.e. that the Club members are so shocked, that they won't react

leila · 30-10-2012, 14:23

Shame on the breeder! But the FCI can stop this, no? They are breeding mixes and this is against the FCI rules...

29-10-2012, 22:03	#1
mijke Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Warnsveld Posts: 2,033	@Rona: I really don’t know yet at this moment! Also the board of the Dutch club was today shocked about the news of this planned CsW mix crossing of a Dutch breeder. The club also confirms that kennel van Goverwelle have nothing to do with this! It is very sad kennel van 't Aelse Sluske also harms the name of kennel van Goverwelle with using a female of them for this mix (instead of using a CsW of the breeding line of her own). __________________ Vriendelijke groeten, Mijke PS: I am not a moderator anymore!!

30-10-2012, 14:23	#10
leila http://www.tobrok.sk Join Date: May 2006 Location: Nitra - Mojmírovce, Slovakia Posts: 550	Shame on the breeder! But the FCI can stop this, no? They are breeding mixes and this is against the FCI rules... __________________ www.tobrok.sk

30-10-2012, 11:43	#2
Shadowlands Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Vidin Posts: 391	Advertising so blatently that you are planning to do this is shocking! I wonder if it would be possible to petition the FCI to bring in a ruling whereby any kennel proven to crossbreed is 'struck off' permanently? It needs to be FCI wide, not dependant on individual country breed clubs.

31-10-2012, 10:15	#4
Ligerwolve2 Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 57	Sorry I dont see the issue. A new breed in the making with open stud books needs new blood. They SHOULD use dogs with a known history. So health and temperament is easier to predict. How do you think the CzW came about? Careful crossbreeding.

31-10-2012, 14:12	#6
Ligerwolve2 Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 57	So what your saying is any breed that wasnt created by someone who is a scientist should not exist? Im not saying that these things shouldnt be entered with extreme care. I think there is a huge amount of work that should be done before mating etc. Perhaps you dont realise how common this is? New breeds are created all the time. I would rather have imput into what is happening, help guide the individual to the best options rather than see them sneak behind my back and use the worst combination and then quit half way through and leave a trail of cross breeds. Secondly you realise that CzWs while being a fantastic example of how to go about creating a breed is still seen as "new" and more of a fad and designer dog by some in the dog community. That others think CzW breeders are "amateur". I bet people just love hearing that. Bet it makes light of all the hard work that has gone into this wonderful breed. Im sure its quite far from the truth. Untill I hear from this person in question myself I would not go around labelling them as anything. Again I would rather steer them in the right direction which you wont get the chance to do if you come across as aggressive. They may lose registry to start with but would they not then later be registered as a foundation bitch/dog? One more time I think you will not stop this happening. All breeds see it. The question is how will you as a community handle this? By insulting another breed? By throwing a tantrum? Or by sharing some of your wisdom? Whether you like the breed or not they are trying to create it and from what I understand they have used CzWs before.

31-10-2012, 14:14	#7
Ligerwolve2 Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 57	Also I think you are wrong that no early hybrids made their way into private hands, but I cant prove it at this time.