DM Testresults

[z Peronówki]

Originally Posted by nanouk

With the many dogs that will never show the illness, can you name me 1, just one 'affected' TWD age 10 or older that doesn't show signs?.

I could tell you the names of several DM/DM dogs which are over 10 years old (one is even 14 years old) and still walk good (compared to their age)... Unfortunately the owners do not agree...
What I can do - I will travel to visit some of them in May. I can try to take some videos of them (the videos will not show the heads but the movement)...

And it is no wonder - Wolfdogs are different in this case...
Just look - DM is not a NEW illness. It has been in the "blood" of your dogs since founding of the breed because it came from German Shepherds... The DM tests are avaible for a long time... Vets know this illness very well - many GSDs suffer from it...
Why for many years there was not even one case of person who wrote about such problems by his/her dog? Why nobody wrote that Wolfdogs can have DM?

The answer is simply: because even if there are pretty many CzWs which are "carriers" and "affected" only VERY small amount of DM/DM dogs show serious symptoms... In the 12 years I saw hundreds of Wolfdogs. But not even one which had such problems as Forrest.
Sure that DM appears by CzWs too - but it appears when the dogs are already old (8+). And the symtoms are not so good visible... It is why the illness was "hidden" for so many years: many people, even if they saw a DM/DM dog though (because of the age of the dogs) that they walk "different" because of their age... Nobody though it can be symtom of any other "illess" than the most known: old age....

Originally Posted by Tatti

For everybody who's saying a dog who is a carrier don't have to become ill.
Tell it please to Michael, his dog Falco Crying Wolf will be 9 years old in Jan 2011 and he's already ill for almost 1 year.

Falco is not CARRIER (N/DM). HE is AFFECTED dog (DM). Carriers do not get ill...

But here you forgot one thing - Falco is brother of Forrest (the dog from the video). Both are DM/DM, both get ill in the (pretty) early age and by both dogs the illness develop very fast...

It doesn't mean it apply for all other "affected" dogs... It means only that exactly by this "family" there must be something in the genes what "activate" the illness... And exactly all breeding dogs from this line must be tested.
It doesn't mean other dogs do not need to be tested. It means only that by the dogs with similar ancestors a DM test is a must...

[woland77]

Originally Posted by z Peronówki

I could tell you the names of several DM/DM dogs which are over 10 years old (one is even 14 years old) and still walk good (compared to their age)... Unfortunately the owners do not agree...
What I can do - I will travel to visit some of them in May. I can try to take some videos of them (the videos will not show the heads but the movement)...

And it is no wonder - Wolfdogs are different in this case...
Just look - DM is not a NEW illness. It has been in the "blood" of your dogs since founding of the breed because it came from German Shepherds... The DM tests are avaible for a long time... Vets know this illness very well - many GSDs suffer from it...
It is absolutely not true. The test for research purposes is available from 2008, to 2009 from commercial laboratories, the scientific articles with all the good practice was published in 2009. You can not talk about "long time"

the articles was send from Coates staff on December 2008,
The body to verify the validity of the content published in February 2009:

http://www.pnas.org/content/early/20...97106.abstract

http://www.pnas.org/content/early/20....full.pdf+html
Why for many years there was not even one case of person who wrote about such problems by his/her dog? Why nobody wrote that Wolfdogs can have DM?

The answer is simply: because even if there are pretty many CzWs which are "carriers" and "affected"

only VERY small amount of DM/DM dogs show serious symptoms...

Dr Gandini said the test is not in use long enough to do any kind of estimate on the results. There is no certainty that the dog DM / DM develops symptoms, but there is no certainty that there are dogs DM / DM can not get sick. There are some reported cases of old dogs DM/DM without symptoms (but the official scientific publications do not mention), which are being studied. The only certainty is scientifically accepted that all dogs with genetic testing for DM with symptoms according to the official diagnostic protocol, and that were affected after the autopsy, were all DM / DM. Any other implications among the test and the development of the disease is currently under study even in races more monitored.

In the 12 years I saw hundreds of Wolfdogs. But not even one which had such problems as Forrest.
Sure that DM appears by CzWs too - but it appears when the dogs are already old (8+). And the symtoms are not so good visible... It is why the illness was "hidden" for so many years: many people, even if they saw a DM/DM dog though (because of the age of the dogs) that they walk "different" because of their age... Nobody though it can be symtom of any other "illess" than the most known: old age....




Falco is not CARRIER (N/DM). HE is AFFECTED dog (DM). Carriers do not get ill...

But here you forgot one thing - Falco is brother of Forrest (the dog from the video). Both are DM/DM, both get ill in the (pretty) early age and by both dogs the illness develop very fast...

It doesn't mean it apply for all other "affected" dogs... It means only that exactly by this "family" there must be something in the genes what "activate" the illness... And exactly all breeding dogs from this line must be tested.
It doesn't mean other dogs do not need to be tested. It means only that by the dogs with similar ancestors a DM test is a must...

The fact that there is an agent for activating SOD1 is still a hypothesis under investigation, not a certainty. Talking to the SOD1 gene in a family is more active than others is not serious and scientific.

It 's more useful to consider that the probability of finding a recessive gene as homozygous (DM / DM) is directly proportional to the higher inbreeding coefficient.

[elf]

Originally Posted by z Peronówki
It doesn't mean it apply for all other "affected" dogs... It means only that exactly by this "family" there must be something in the genes what "activate" the illness..

This is very likely what's happening, this is the case for many many other diseases or gen traits, i.e. genetic regulatory networks expressivity pattern.

Originally Posted by z Peronówki
Because now we miss one VERY important thing... There are lines by CzWs which have SERIOUS problems to move properly already at the age of 2-4 YEARS... And some dogs from these lines have been tested with N/N. So for 100% they do not have DM... They are also HD-free...

My dog has one of these "new disease", she starts walking not properly at the age of 1.5, the scanner showed her disease is related to the central part of bones, this central part -spongy bone-, does not show the correct structure and have too much soft tissus (showed in the scanner as large black parts -some cm long- whereas regular tissus looks light grey). Vets are likely for a genetic causes, but know nothing more about it.

[Mikael]

Originally Posted by elf

My dog has one of these "new disease", she starts walking not properly at the age of 1.5, the scanner showed her disease is related to the central part of bones, this central part -spongy bone-, does not show the correct structure and have too much soft tissus (showed in the scanner as large black parts -some cm long- whereas regular tissus looks light grey). Vets are likely for a genetic causes, but know nothing more about it.

Very sorry about your dog, is it a CsV ? And how old is she now ?
Did it get worse whit age ?

Best regards / Mikael

[Mikael]

On the dogs today that are Affected and ill, can one see anyhing that has any similarities ??? Like high COI % or Line ???

And NO names please !

Very best regards / Mikael

[woland77]

Originally Posted by elf

This is very likely what's happening, this is the case for many many other diseases or gen traits, i.e. genetic regulatory networks expressivity pattern.

As plausible, there are several research groups are studying the thing that does not take any responsibility to make assumptions like that. Scientifically still speaking about a " Unkonow trigger" If i'm well informed, the DNA of both brothers are at one of these research bodies, leave to speculate where it is due. Speculating on these assumptions is the best ground where they sprout the witch-hunts.

[Shadowlands]

We are going to have our girl tested for DM soon - are there other tests we should consider at the same time (one trip to to the vet to take blood for sending to Laboklin is better than several). What is ED? Are there known eye problems PRA/PLL?

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

You need blood for DM and Dwarfism and please also to send for the databank in Bern.
ED is Ellbowdisplasia, that is an x-ray to take when you x-ray for HD.
There are more genetic eye diseases than PRA, normally the specialists (and it should be done by a specialist) check for all of them at once but this should be done in regular terms, we have to do it on a yearly basis in Germany.

Regards
Ina

[Shadowlands]

Thanks Ina.

We are based in Bulgaria so it may be difficult to find somewhere to do the regular eye checks you describe, but I will look into it. The ED scan will be done soon and I intend to send blood to Utrecht to scan for Dwarfism. I was thinking of sending extra blood to Laboklin for DNA storage - is this the same or different to the databank in Bern (if different, please can you let me have the details so that I can organise this too).

[z Peronówki]

Originally Posted by woland77

It is absolutely not true. The test for research purposes is available from 2008, to 2009 from commercial laboratories, the scientific articles with all the good practice was published in 2009. You can not talk about "long time"

I meant it as for DNA tests
DNA testing is pretty new - the universities are just developing them... But it was possible to test DM already since several years. Since 2008 you have the "official" test. But before some laboratories made researches and I know polish breeders (not CzW breeders) which send samples to USA before 2008 to help to develop it...

2 years long nobody was interested in testing CzW for DM... Long time in the world of DNA tests...

[woland77]

Originally Posted by z Peronówki

I meant it as for DNA tests
DNA testing is pretty new - the universities are just developing them... But it was possible to test DM already since several years. Since 2008 you have the "official" test. But before some laboratories made researches and I know polish breeders (not CzW breeders) which send samples to USA before 2008 to help to develop it...

2 years long nobody was interested in testing CzW for DM... Long time in the world of DNA tests...

Test available form polish breeder from several years?? The test out of Uni Missouri is recent!

I know the possibility of test on end of 2009, i have made my research and i test my bitch on March of 2010. Many owner know the test from some mounth, although Mijke inform us on 2009.

[z Peronówki]

Originally Posted by woland77

Test available form polish breeder from several years?? The test out of Uni Missouri is recent!

Not the "official" tests!

Look - the cases of DM by dogs were known for many years... It was pretty known illness... It is why universities started to investigate how it is heritated... They asked for blood samples of healthy and ill dogs which helped them to prepare "official" tests....

Polish breeders send samples for the researches which were made before 2008......


It is like with dwarfs - some dogs were tested by the Dutch laboratory BEFORE the official test was "published"...

I hope now it is clear....

[woland77]

Yes is clear, but Dr Gandini say us different cronology about the first tests done for research (not ufficial) by Uni Missouri, outside of the first sample of dog on wich the research develop. But is not very important

Important is the fact that in their choices of breeding, aimed at combating a disease, a test can be considered valid only after all the necessary scientific availment, and then from 2009, which is a recent test. All Veterinay says than is new the possibility to select in breeding (with all scientific bases) SOD1 gene.

[Ricky's Wolf]

Hello,
this is news of August 2010, but I want to insert also here:

VOICE OF WOLF

Degenerative Myelopathie - PCR
Myelopathie
Ergebnis: Genotyp N/DM


ASHOKA

Degenerative Myelopathie - PCR
Myelopathie
Ergebnis: Genotyp N/N

[nanouk]

Originally Posted by z Peronówki

I could tell you the names of several DM/DM dogs which are over 10 years old (one is even 14 years old) and still walk good (compared to their age)... Unfortunately the owners do not agree...


...

Thank you for your answer. With not so many dogs tested yet, were these old dogs tested for a specific reason, like a 'suspicious' line or are the owners responsible and think testing sensible? Too bad they don't want to make the names known, because imho knowing that indeed dogs do not get ill is important information!

[Gypsy Wolf]

I would urge those owners to at least submit blood or tissue samples and a pedigree - if not now, perhaps when the dogs die... it would be invaluable for research to know what "triggers" disease symptoms... it would, in theory, save other dogs from suffering...

[nanouk]

Originally Posted by z Peronówki

I could tell you the names of several DM/DM dogs which are over 10 years old (one is even 14 years old) and still walk good (compared to their age)... Unfortunately the owners do not agree...
What I can do - I will travel to visit some of them in May. I can try to take some videos of them (the videos will not show the heads but the movement)...

And it is no wonder - Wolfdogs are different in this case...
Just look - DM is not a NEW illness. It has been in the "blood" of your dogs since founding of the breed because it came from German Shepherds... The DM tests are avaible for a long time... Vets know this illness very well - many GSDs suffer from it...
Why for many years there was not even one case of person who wrote about such problems by his/her dog? Why nobody wrote that Wolfdogs can have DM?

The answer is simply: because even if there are pretty many CzWs which are "carriers" and "affected" only VERY small amount of DM/DM dogs show serious symptoms... In the 12 years I saw hundreds of Wolfdogs. But not even one which had such problems as Forrest.
Sure that DM appears by CzWs too - but it appears when the dogs are already old (8+). And the symtoms are not so good visible... It is why the illness was "hidden" for so many years: many people, even if they saw a DM/DM dog though (because of the age of the dogs) that they walk "different" because of their age... Nobody though it can be symtom of any other "illess" than the most known: old age....




Falco is not CARRIER (N/DM). HE is AFFECTED dog (DM). Carriers do not get ill...

But here you forgot one thing - Falco is brother of Forrest (the dog from the video). Both are DM/DM, both get ill in the (pretty) early age and by both dogs the illness develop very fast...

It doesn't mean it apply for all other "affected" dogs... It means only that exactly by this "family" there must be something in the genes what "activate" the illness... And exactly all breeding dogs from this line must be tested.
It doesn't mean other dogs do not need to be tested. It means only that by the dogs with similar ancestors a DM test is a must...

I keep thinking about your post, and sorry but can shake the feeling you and i are getting smoke blown upo our ....

suddenly an 8 yr old twd is an old dog, people have known about it long, but you've never seen one, and the one, one of the few mentioned in public, is a different strain in your opinion, one that does show early. It is so unclear to me why people would test their dog to get the dm/dm result, a dog long beyond breeding age, and than keep those results under cover, even when these results would show that dm/dm dogs do indeed not have to get ill before the age of say 10.
I have only had Saarloos for 11 yrs, and have heard of both SWH and TWD with symptoms that could have been DM. (could have been, because first time i heard of it, little information was found, and the dna test is only recent)
So sorry, still don't by dogs getting old all healthy with this disease

[yukidomari]

Hello Nanouk,

Are you looking for examples of just wolf-dog DM affected?

Our Doberman is A/A for DM, he is almost 13 years old on January 31st.

He has no problems.

A Doberman is of course not a wolfdog but DM is the same genetic marker test.

[massimo]

I got today a nice information
Jasna Zlata Palz N/N for DM.
...I will never thank enough Ina and Michael for this Diamond!!

As for my Oliver, it is very probable that he is a Carrier like his sister, because
Ariminnum Upstream is N/N too.

At least I am sure that none of his sons are DM/DM

[massimo]

Originally Posted by z Peronówki

It doesn't mean it apply for all other "affected" dogs... It means only that exactly by this "family" there must be something in the genes what "activate" the illness... And exactly all breeding dogs from this line must be tested.
It doesn't mean other dogs do not need to be tested. It means only that by the dogs with similar ancestors a DM test is a must...

Quote 100%, the more dogs possible tested and with results, the better.
Studying the dogs who are DM/DM but also Ill should be a must.