4 wolves used in breed development

hanninadina · 12-11-2010, 19:52

The breed czechoslovakian wolfdog is a breed between carpathian wolf and german shepard. Why everybody is talking to cross again with a wolf and why nobody thinks to cross with a german shepard? A nice eastern grey line. None aggressiv, nice to people with best working abilitys? In second generation again breed with a csw, nobody will see it.

By selectiv breeding and using a "good" open friendly wolf with a real good and friendly csw female with best working abilities the most pups could be used. But by the way, who of the breeders is breeding after working abilities today? I do not know one. There is a hand full who seems to have "working" dogs. But 5 from 100 or better 500.

So it is academical this question, if a F 1 is able to work. If you will breed the F 1 with a good working dog, you will get a workable F 2. I know some good working F 1 and F 2. There is no problem, but of course you have to select the wolf!

And it is right you can not take a wolf and say go and mate the dog. Wolves are like we are, they first have to "marry" and they stay all their lifes together. So the easiest way is to raise up a wolf cub with a csw pup. And than you wait 3 years.

Even the german shepard was founded like this, crossing in 4 wolves. I got the old pedigrees showing it. And in the old version from the book The german shepard from 1921, 6. edition, the breed founder Max von Stephanitz is writing about this.

No pup must put to death because he maybe would not like to work. There are so many proves in interent with videos that people do live with F 1, F 2 high content in their houses without any problems. Most of the csw make more problems than any F 1 high content. Because the german shepard makes them hyperactiv and is the problem!

If you know how to live with wolves and F 1 there is no problem. But you should never hit your animals, like some "specialist" do. One is writing here. So no wonder that he has bad experience. It is very simple "make the difference". And of course there are shy and timid wolves, but friendly and open ones too.

And of course, Rona, the reality is that the people want real wolfdogs and they do not care for wrong papers! And of course they know what they got!

Christian
www.wolfdogs-siouxtala.de You can read on my website about the different kind of wolves under the page wolves! Wolves have a different character, like you and me, and every dog. And breeding with wolves of course you do not have to take wild ones, but in captivity raised ones, who have proven that they are able to work.

hanninadina · 12-11-2010, 20:23

That is not the point. The csw is a breed which started with taking a wolf! And they did take a wolf who was not trained. They took one from zoo! And the first german shepard was not able to breed the first wolvin! So they took a real strong character and of coure he was very aggressiv! He did not care that Brita did not want to breed. Maybe that is the reason why most of the csw are kind of aggressiv - old genetics. In france is in the moment a big problem with aggressiv csw. There are a lot of them in shelters! The breeders did not expalin the people what kind of dogs they are.

You can absolutely not compare to train a wolf to train a tiger! The founder of the german shepard called a wolf a wild dog! When he is writing about wolves, he is always writing about wild dogs!

These wolves you see in the pic are walked with visitors. Of course they are young in the moment. We will see how it develops. But here we are talking not that people should buy a wolf as a dog, but if it is impossible to bring in fresh blood, before this nature breed will go down because of illness.

Yes, you are right, that was not the topic, but I did not start writing about this but answering to.

yukidomari · 12-11-2010, 20:29

Thanks for your reply. Is there any substantiation behind your claims that:

- The wolves were from zoos
- That the GSD mated with Brita was very [sic] "aggressiv"
- That vonStephanitz meant "wolf" when he said "wild dog"

A friend has a reprint of The German Shepherd (1923) and says nothing of the sort was discussed regarding vonStephanitz.

And in theory I agree with you, because I think there's a possibility of a workable backcross project should the need arise. I just don't think it needs to be done with either wolf nor GSD.

Priska182 · 12-11-2010, 20:36

Thank you for your post Hanka

It’s true now I don’t think any breeders can do the same works as the army does for the CsV. No one have the time, the budget and probably the capacity to do honestly the same woks...
I don’t think it’s a necessary to introduce new wolf blood in the CsV... Just try to make the right choice when you planned a litter... Like Rona I don’t think follow the “Bonitation Standard” is a good long term solution. For example I know my girls have a too long tail... But... She is a good behaviour dog with a really healthy condition

She is for me a perfect dog

Is it true that some breeders cheat about their pups and introduces new wolf blood in there kennel... I can imagine why, but I don’t understand, I saw a lot of “!!!MIX!!!” in the database... So ok it’s a fact they have wolf like parents, but some are really unknown and report as true CsV? And those hybrids are for sell? I really don’t understand why. I can only imagine this Mix for their proper use in there kennel but not for sell...

On the French part of the forum there is a thread about “American Wolfdog” and it’s really amazing because people doesn’t really understand that is not a real Breed of dogs like the Czechoslovakian Wolfdog or the Saarloos... So it’s really easy to cheat by pretending our hybrids are a foreigner breed or something like that... So why claim they are true CsV?
Anyway, it’s really interesting

Best regards,

Hanka · 12-11-2010, 21:19

Yes, we need not new wolf blood. We always can choose good parents of next litters. Only is necessary to look at pedigries. And some 1 Rep z PS in 10. generation is not problem. Yes, he is there. And what????
More important is to make lagrer and larger genopool of breed. Biggest problem is, in the World are not really working clubs for czw. I don´t mean clubs of "friends of breed", but I mean really working club with some leader who knows something about genetic. Important is to use for female different male for every litter and a little "lead" breeding in every country. But it does not exist, what is a pitty and bad for breed.
Don´t look at exterier of dogs and don´t choose males for females only for "wolfish type". Important is to choose males, because they have this or this blood. But when I today look at "planned litters" here on wolfdog I see, much breeders always choose males only for exterier.
But it is always speaking about the same. It is a pitty, countries of origin can´t give strict conditions for breeding of wolfdogs in the World. A pitty for breed.

Hanka · 12-11-2010, 21:25

Wow it is ineterst picture, but this wolf does not look like wolf

. Hi hi it is wolf "of old type".
I have something about history too, but scann is in bad quality on my webpage. If somebody will want, I can send it by email.
http://wolfdog.wbs.cz/Neco-z-historie.html

hanninadina · 12-11-2010, 21:31

Hey Hanka, very very interesting articles. I only read a bit. Can you please send them to me by mail? [email protected] I am writing a book about wolfdogs in german and I am interested in everything in that way. I even have 8 articles in russian language, looking for someone who can translate hahahaha.

thanks

Christian

hanninadina · 12-11-2010, 21:37

And here a link to that article from Ann:

http://www.asuperiorgsd.com/wolf-dog.html

Hanka · 12-11-2010, 22:16

Yes, I send, of course. I have russian book about czechoslovakian wolfdog

CDaniela · 12-11-2010, 22:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by hanninadina

Here a picture from some trained wolves who know 20(!) commands and are feed from hand! The wolfscience center in austria proves that it is possible.

And here are my pictures from the Center .... really amazing experience.
http://picasaweb.google.com/smecka31...tych_Rakousko#

12-11-2010, 19:52	#1
hanninadina Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 2,466	The breed czechoslovakian wolfdog is a breed between carpathian wolf and german shepard. Why everybody is talking to cross again with a wolf and why nobody thinks to cross with a german shepard? A nice eastern grey line. None aggressiv, nice to people with best working abilitys? In second generation again breed with a csw, nobody will see it. By selectiv breeding and using a "good" open friendly wolf with a real good and friendly csw female with best working abilities the most pups could be used. But by the way, who of the breeders is breeding after working abilities today? I do not know one. There is a hand full who seems to have "working" dogs. But 5 from 100 or better 500. So it is academical this question, if a F 1 is able to work. If you will breed the F 1 with a good working dog, you will get a workable F 2. I know some good working F 1 and F 2. There is no problem, but of course you have to select the wolf! And it is right you can not take a wolf and say go and mate the dog. Wolves are like we are, they first have to "marry" and they stay all their lifes together. So the easiest way is to raise up a wolf cub with a csw pup. And than you wait 3 years. Even the german shepard was founded like this, crossing in 4 wolves. I got the old pedigrees showing it. And in the old version from the book The german shepard from 1921, 6. edition, the breed founder Max von Stephanitz is writing about this. No pup must put to death because he maybe would not like to work. There are so many proves in interent with videos that people do live with F 1, F 2 high content in their houses without any problems. Most of the csw make more problems than any F 1 high content. Because the german shepard makes them hyperactiv and is the problem! If you know how to live with wolves and F 1 there is no problem. But you should never hit your animals, like some "specialist" do. One is writing here. So no wonder that he has bad experience. It is very simple "make the difference". And of course there are shy and timid wolves, but friendly and open ones too. And of course, Rona, the reality is that the people want real wolfdogs and they do not care for wrong papers! And of course they know what they got! Christian www.wolfdogs-siouxtala.de You can read on my website about the different kind of wolves under the page wolves! Wolves have a different character, like you and me, and every dog. And breeding with wolves of course you do not have to take wild ones, but in captivity raised ones, who have proven that they are able to work. Last edited by hanninadina; 12-11-2010 at 19:57.

12-11-2010, 20:36	#4
Priska182 Canadian Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Montréal Posts: 423	Thank you for your post Hanka It’s true now I don’t think any breeders can do the same works as the army does for the CsV. No one have the time, the budget and probably the capacity to do honestly the same woks... I don’t think it’s a necessary to introduce new wolf blood in the CsV... Just try to make the right choice when you planned a litter... Like Rona I don’t think follow the “Bonitation Standard” is a good long term solution. For example I know my girls have a too long tail... But... She is a good behaviour dog with a really healthy condition She is for me a perfect dog Is it true that some breeders cheat about their pups and introduces new wolf blood in there kennel... I can imagine why, but I don’t understand, I saw a lot of “!!!MIX!!!” in the database... So ok it’s a fact they have wolf like parents, but some are really unknown and report as true CsV? And those hybrids are for sell? I really don’t understand why. I can only imagine this Mix for their proper use in there kennel but not for sell... On the French part of the forum there is a thread about “American Wolfdog” and it’s really amazing because people doesn’t really understand that is not a real Breed of dogs like the Czechoslovakian Wolfdog or the Saarloos... So it’s really easy to cheat by pretending our hybrids are a foreigner breed or something like that... So why claim they are true CsV? Anyway, it’s really interesting Best regards, __________________ Stéphanie www.inugami.ca

12-11-2010, 20:23	#2
hanninadina Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 2,466	That is not the point. The csw is a breed which started with taking a wolf! And they did take a wolf who was not trained. They took one from zoo! And the first german shepard was not able to breed the first wolvin! So they took a real strong character and of coure he was very aggressiv! He did not care that Brita did not want to breed. Maybe that is the reason why most of the csw are kind of aggressiv - old genetics. In france is in the moment a big problem with aggressiv csw. There are a lot of them in shelters! The breeders did not expalin the people what kind of dogs they are. You can absolutely not compare to train a wolf to train a tiger! The founder of the german shepard called a wolf a wild dog! When he is writing about wolves, he is always writing about wild dogs! These wolves you see in the pic are walked with visitors. Of course they are young in the moment. We will see how it develops. But here we are talking not that people should buy a wolf as a dog, but if it is impossible to bring in fresh blood, before this nature breed will go down because of illness. Yes, you are right, that was not the topic, but I did not start writing about this but answering to.

12-11-2010, 20:29	#3
yukidomari Moderator Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Los Angeles CA Posts: 847	Thanks for your reply. Is there any substantiation behind your claims that: - The wolves were from zoos - That the GSD mated with Brita was very [sic] "aggressiv" - That vonStephanitz meant "wolf" when he said "wild dog" A friend has a reprint of The German Shepherd (1923) and says nothing of the sort was discussed regarding vonStephanitz. And in theory I agree with you, because I think there's a possibility of a workable backcross project should the need arise. I just don't think it needs to be done with either wolf nor GSD.

12-11-2010, 21:19	#5
Hanka Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Kadaň Posts: 1,622	Yes, we need not new wolf blood. We always can choose good parents of next litters. Only is necessary to look at pedigries. And some 1 Rep z PS in 10. generation is not problem. Yes, he is there. And what???? More important is to make lagrer and larger genopool of breed. Biggest problem is, in the World are not really working clubs for czw. I don´t mean clubs of "friends of breed", but I mean really working club with some leader who knows something about genetic. Important is to use for female different male for every litter and a little "lead" breeding in every country. But it does not exist, what is a pitty and bad for breed. Don´t look at exterier of dogs and don´t choose males for females only for "wolfish type". Important is to choose males, because they have this or this blood. But when I today look at "planned litters" here on wolfdog I see, much breeders always choose males only for exterier. But it is always speaking about the same. It is a pitty, countries of origin can´t give strict conditions for breeding of wolfdogs in the World. A pitty for breed.

12-11-2010, 21:25	#6
Hanka Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Kadaň Posts: 1,622	Wow it is ineterst picture, but this wolf does not look like wolf . Hi hi it is wolf "of old type". I have something about history too, but scann is in bad quality on my webpage. If somebody will want, I can send it by email. http://wolfdog.wbs.cz/Neco-z-historie.html

12-11-2010, 21:31	#7
hanninadina Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 2,466	Hey Hanka, very very interesting articles. I only read a bit. Can you please send them to me by mail? [email protected] I am writing a book about wolfdogs in german and I am interested in everything in that way. I even have 8 articles in russian language, looking for someone who can translate hahahaha. thanks Christian

12-11-2010, 21:37	#8
hanninadina Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 2,466	And here a link to that article from Ann: http://www.asuperiorgsd.com/wolf-dog.html

12-11-2010, 22:16	#9
Hanka Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Kadaň Posts: 1,622	Yes, I send, of course. I have russian book about czechoslovakian wolfdog