Calculation of Wolf blood?

Gypsy Wolf · 04-06-2010, 19:13

Of course when I discuss it with people, I do tend to say, based on the "American" way of looking at wolf blood, that Luna is really no more than about 3% "wolf"... for me, I sort of think of "wolf blood" as "pure wolf blood" - once there is a mix, even though it has a percentage of wolf blood, it is still a mix, so I think of "wolf blood" as the amount of "pure wolf" in her.
It also reinforces to the public that she is NOT a wolf-hybrid, she is a dog and 3% sounds "friendlier" to them and 30%.
Most of the time I tend to describe the vlcak as a breed that "looks like a wolf, acts like a shepherd."
People are more likely to interact with her when they think she has little to no wolf in her - initially they suspect she is a hybrid and stay away, but when I describe her as a DOG that just happens to look wolfy they want to pet her.

Fede86 · 09-06-2010, 10:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lunas Mom

It also reinforces to the public that she is NOT a wolf-hybrid, she is a dog and 3% sounds "friendlier" to them and 30%.

I may be wrong... but I don't think that the Czechoslovakian Wolfdog really has 30% of wolf blood. I think the actual percentage, from a genetic point of view, is much lower than that. I remember someone on the Italian forum said he did a genetic test on his wolfdogs and it showed that the actual wolf blood percentage was lower than 4%, so I guess that when you tell people your dog is no more 3% wolf you are probably not lying.
I guess that at this point of development of the breed, and after so many generations from the last pure wolf, they should be considered DOGS. They may be a “difficult” and peculiar breed, yes, but they are still dogs.
And if we actually portrayed them as such, there would be many less fanatical people getting them because they want a “wolf”. I think that it would have been better for the sake of the breed if it’s name was “Czechoslovakian Shepherd” instead of “Czechoslovakian Wolfdog”, but this is of course just a personal opinion

elf · 09-06-2010, 11:46

Lunas Mom, take a look at Belyaev (foxes) and Tryon (rats) works about effects of selection, it would help to relativise this %.

Quote:

I remember someone on the Italian forum said he did a genetic test on his wolfdogs and it showed that the actual wolf blood percentage was lower than 4%

Must be a post on a 1st April

Rona · 09-06-2010, 12:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by elf

Must be a post on a 1st April

So it seems.... if wolf genes evaporated, then GSD must have disappeared as well... I wonder if there are still any genes in our dogs?

Fede86 · 09-06-2010, 12:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rona

So it seems.... if wolf genes evaporated, then GSD must have disappeared as well... I wonder if there are still any genes in our dogs?

I really wouldn’t know, I’m not an expert in genetics… I guess that a breed has the genes that are passed with the breeding: the genes bringing the traits you breed for are passed, the others are lost. Since in the beginning they bred for character more than for wolfy appearance, it wouldn’t surprise me if the genes of the German Shepherd had taken the upper hand. This matter makes me curious, I think I should test my dog and see, but I’m not really expecting to find much wolf blood in him. Then again, maybe I’m wrong… I’m just wondering, since I can’t see much wolf in the AVERAGE Czechoslovakian wolfdog. Of course there are exceptions

Rona · 09-06-2010, 12:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fede86

I really wouldn’t know, I’m not an expert in genetics… I guess that a breed has the genes that are passed with the breeding: the genes bringing the traits you breed for are passed, the others are lost. Since in the beginning they bred for character more than for wolfy appearance, it wouldn’t surprise me if the genes of the German Shepherd had taken the upper hand. This matter makes me curious, I think I should test my dog and see, but I’m not really expecting to find much wolf blood in him. Then again, maybe I’m wrong… I’m just wondering, since I can’t see much wolf in the AVERAGE Czechoslovakian wolfdog. Of course there are exceptions

Well, personally I don't really care how wofish my dog is or what her genotype is..., but... WHY, in your opinion, do CSV play wolves in films? I bet it'd be much easier to train a GSD than a CSV to act wolf....

Angelika · 09-06-2010, 12:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rona

... I wonder if there are still any genes in our dogs?

I lately discovered some human characteristics in mine

elf · 09-06-2010, 14:30

Fede, indeed you are talking about "Wolves genes" (not Wolfblood -which is just a math number-).
You know wolves and dogs are very very close regarding DNA sharing, and sometimes only a very little change in the genome may lead to huge structural/functionnal changes, so it's not expectable to be mesured lineary (like a %). Those kind of researches are rather new and are possible with use of DNA chip + computer analisis, you can make a google search with these words to go deeper: "Genome wide SNP haplotype dog domestication".
To complicate more, genes tend not to work alone but into what we call a 'genetic regulatory network' (GNR), this is also highly non linear processes. And in addition, you have other levels of regulation at "expression time" (ARN modulation by proteines is an exemple) => same genes -> different expressions. So, as you guess, no straight conclusion like this possible.

Fede86 · 09-06-2010, 16:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by elf

Fede, indeed you are talking about "Wolves genes" (not Wolfblood -which is just a math number-).
You know wolves and dogs are very very close regarding DNA sharing, and sometimes only a very little change in the genome may lead to huge structural/functionnal changes, so it's not expectable to be mesured lineary (like a %). Those kind of researches are rather new and are possible with use of DNA chip + computer analisis, you can make a google search with these words to go deeper: "Genome wide SNP haplotype dog domestication".
To complicate more, genes tend not to work alone but into what we call a 'genetic regulatory network' (GNR), this is also highly non linear processes. And in addition, you have other levels of regulation at "expression time" (ARN modulation by proteines is an exemple) => same genes -> different expressions. So, as you guess, no straight conclusion like this possible.

Thank you for your explanation, I'll ask more specific information to the person who wrote about the genetic analysis on his dogs to understant what exactly he was referring to when he said they turned out to be less than 4% wolf, because from what you write it probably wasn't what I thought it was. As I said, I'm no expert regarding those matters. Anyway I was first of all talking about what I see: the AVERAGE Czechoslovakian wolfdog looks very different from a wolf to me. If I had to tell how much wolf I see in the average CWD using a percentage, it would not be nearly as high as a 30% (one third wolf!). But then, someone else may think they look MORE than 30% wolf. Again, I'm conveying a PERSONAL opinion, not stating a universal truth. Maybe I'm just sick of people owning Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs and calling them "wolves"

Rona · 09-06-2010, 18:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Angelika

I lately discovered some human characteristics in mine

We've discovered this long time ago

Gypsy Wolf · 09-06-2010, 18:59

Statistically, I was looking at the number of GSDs and wolves that were used as foundation stock for our breed. 48 GSDs and 5 wolves. 5 is not 30% of 48.
Also, per one of the above posts, as the "best of the best" of the CSVs were selected to be bred, likely it was an overwhelming amount of GSD genetics that were selected for. Yes, they look very wolfy (though a lot of GSDs do too) phenotypically, most "wolf" behavioral characteristics were selected AGAINST - such as flight response, shyness, nervousness, independence, etc. Most of the desireable behavioral characteristics that were selected FOR were GSD traits - courage, biddability, social/pack drive, etc.
The wolf and dog genome are almost identical as dogs, obviously ARE wolves - albeit domesticated. Our advantage is that we know what wolf blood we used, and there may be some DNA characteristics (mitochondrial or other) specific to our Carpathian wolves. Certainy there are differences morphologically. So perhaps in the future we can recognize those markers and determine EXACTLY how much "wolf" is in any given CSV.
Until then I will just enjoy my DOG.

Oh, just because CSVs are often used to portray wolves, doesn't necessarily mean they look exactly like wolves... here in the U.S. I know of many film shots of "wolves" are played by sable GSDs, Malamutes and sometimes even Belgian shepherds! I am hoping that having a CSV available for film work will help change that, as my own dogs have been in multiple film projects - in other roles of course - they've played Police K9s or guard dogs and even "crippled" dogs in need of a doggie stroller...

09-06-2010, 14:30	#8
elf Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 766	Fede, indeed you are talking about "Wolves genes" (not Wolfblood -which is just a math number-). You know wolves and dogs are very very close regarding DNA sharing, and sometimes only a very little change in the genome may lead to huge structural/functionnal changes, so it's not expectable to be mesured lineary (like a %). Those kind of researches are rather new and are possible with use of DNA chip + computer analisis, you can make a google search with these words to go deeper: "Genome wide SNP haplotype dog domestication". To complicate more, genes tend not to work alone but into what we call a 'genetic regulatory network' (GNR), this is also highly non linear processes. And in addition, you have other levels of regulation at "expression time" (ARN modulation by proteines is an exemple) => same genes -> different expressions. So, as you guess, no straight conclusion like this possible. __________________ http://www.amicale-chien-loup-tcheco...m/csvstat.html

04-06-2010, 19:13	#1
Gypsy Wolf Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Florida & Minnesota U.S. Posts: 252	Of course when I discuss it with people, I do tend to say, based on the "American" way of looking at wolf blood, that Luna is really no more than about 3% "wolf"... for me, I sort of think of "wolf blood" as "pure wolf blood" - once there is a mix, even though it has a percentage of wolf blood, it is still a mix, so I think of "wolf blood" as the amount of "pure wolf" in her. It also reinforces to the public that she is NOT a wolf-hybrid, she is a dog and 3% sounds "friendlier" to them and 30%. Most of the time I tend to describe the vlcak as a breed that "looks like a wolf, acts like a shepherd." People are more likely to interact with her when they think she has little to no wolf in her - initially they suspect she is a hybrid and stay away, but when I describe her as a DOG that just happens to look wolfy they want to pet her.

09-06-2010, 18:59	#11
Gypsy Wolf Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Florida & Minnesota U.S. Posts: 252	Statistically, I was looking at the number of GSDs and wolves that were used as foundation stock for our breed. 48 GSDs and 5 wolves. 5 is not 30% of 48. Also, per one of the above posts, as the "best of the best" of the CSVs were selected to be bred, likely it was an overwhelming amount of GSD genetics that were selected for. Yes, they look very wolfy (though a lot of GSDs do too) phenotypically, most "wolf" behavioral characteristics were selected AGAINST - such as flight response, shyness, nervousness, independence, etc. Most of the desireable behavioral characteristics that were selected FOR were GSD traits - courage, biddability, social/pack drive, etc. The wolf and dog genome are almost identical as dogs, obviously ARE wolves - albeit domesticated. Our advantage is that we know what wolf blood we used, and there may be some DNA characteristics (mitochondrial or other) specific to our Carpathian wolves. Certainy there are differences morphologically. So perhaps in the future we can recognize those markers and determine EXACTLY how much "wolf" is in any given CSV. Until then I will just enjoy my DOG. Oh, just because CSVs are often used to portray wolves, doesn't necessarily mean they look exactly like wolves... here in the U.S. I know of many film shots of "wolves" are played by sable GSDs, Malamutes and sometimes even Belgian shepherds! I am hoping that having a CSV available for film work will help change that, as my own dogs have been in multiple film projects - in other roles of course - they've played Police K9s or guard dogs and even "crippled" dogs in need of a doggie stroller...