Elbow Dysplasia

Mikael · 27-08-2009, 21:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by rolf

Statistics of HD for the last 30 years show that in general no more or less dogs have better hips than for 30 years ago, despite all efforts to eleminate dogs with HD worser than HD C ....ED have not even been researched as long time as HD, why jumping to any conclutions seems to be a waiste of time and are irrelevant for the health of our breed.
Rolf

That is very bad and sad news if it is correct

I think the big step against less HD and ED will come first whit the new DNA testing, but until than I think HD and ED x-rays are to be demands for a studdog.

Best regards / Mikael

Juniorwolf · 27-08-2009, 22:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikael

That is very bad and sad news if it is correct

I think the big step against less HD and ED will come first whit the new DNA testing, but until than I think HD and ED x-rays are to be demands for a studdog.

Best regards / Mikael

Sad but true ! genetics is not that easy to handle and since our breed already suffer from inbreeding more than most other breeds, I think it is stupid to eliminate dogs for no scientific backed up reason at all.
...but luckily this is only a private site and it have nothing to do with regulations of breeding, only stupid(in my opinion) politics.
...although this is a good database !

Rolf

admin · 03-09-2009, 10:45

1) The percentage of heriditary of ED is different for different breeds. I found results of scientific work saying ED is more genetic based than HD. And exactly by wolfdog it seem to "work" - the ED problems seem to appear only by the offspring of two dogs. And their lines seem to be "carriers" of the problems.

For some years we allowed to advertise such dogs here but it is visible new ill dogs (with ED) are offsprings of the ED dogs. Other lines are CLEAR.

So my question to rolf and Runningwolf:

ARE YOU ALSO FO BREEDING DOGS WITH HEART PROBLEMS, EPILEPSY, and STRONG HD (HD-D and HD-E)? Because the same arguments we can use also in this cases...

I'm for the these:
ILL DOG IS AN ILL DOG = NOT FOR BREEDING

Sure you can use them if you want but it is at your responsibility...

Juniorwolf · 03-09-2009, 13:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Admin

1) The percentage of heriditary of ED is different for different breeds. I found results of scientific work saying ED is more genetic based than HD.

I would be very interested in such scientific results, as I personally have been speaking with one of the leading specialists in diagnostics and treatment of joint-/bones-illness and radiography (including PennHIP) in Denmark, his conclution is quit different.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Admin

For some years we allowed to advertise such dogs here but it is visible new ill dogs (with ED) are offsprings of the ED dogs. Other lines are CLEAR.

And all dogs from these "clear"lines have official ED-results ? or are you just guessing ?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Admin

So my question to rolf and Runningwolf:

ARE YOU ALSO FO BREEDING DOGS WITH HEART PROBLEMS, EPILEPSY, and STRONG HD (HD-D and HD-E)? Because the same arguments we can use also in this cases...

Ofcourse not ! Do you seriously think it is fair to compare dog with heart problems, epilepsy or strong HD, with dogs who have the mildest degree of ED(0/1) ?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Admin

I'm for the these:
ILL DOG IS AN ILL DOG = NOT FOR BREEDING

A dog with HD C is in most cases more ill than a dog with ED 0/1, as ED is a term used for many different illnesses in the elbow and many of these illnesss don`t even have slightest degree of influenze on the health of the dog, compared to a dog who have HD C, but you have no problem with HD C, even that it usually have a bigger influenze on the dogs well being ?

By the way, why do you put your self higher than the breedingcommitees of the breeds origin ? I am sure if they thought it were so bad, they could easily add this to the standart, but apparently they don`t ?
Do you feel you have more experience/wisdom, better knowledge and better judgement than the breedingcommitees of the countries of origin, since you choose not to follow their guidelines ?
I`m just curious...

Rolf

Juniorwolf · 08-09-2009, 13:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Admin

No - the rules is different: we remove all ILL dogs from the list.

If you will remove ALL ill dogs, when will you remove dogs with HD B & C, because they are ill too or do you have a special formula which decide how ill a dog must be before it will be removed from the list ?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Admin

So on the stud dog list you can not find dogs with heart problems, epilepsy, PRA and ED.

How do you know this ? dogs who are not tested or dogs who are tested, but do not make the results official, will still be on the list and it is quit possible that many of these dogs will have one or more of the illnesses you mentioned. ...but ofcourse, you don`t need to fear what you can not see

Quote:

Originally Posted by Admin

The problem was: the breeders (owners of ill dogs) DO NOT INFORM the puppy owners and other breeders interested in the dogs as stud dogs that the dogs have the problem.

So you think it is better not to test the dogs or not to make the results official, then nobody knows and nobody can choose if they want puppies from ill(ED, heart problems, epilepsy and PRA) dogs, as nobody knows if the dog is ill or not ? how do you find this logic, when people still can choose to take a puppy from an ill dog with HD C ?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Admin

We already received complains from breeders who covered their females and they accuse US of "advertising" of ill dogs.

But you still advertise for ill dogs with HD C ?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Admin

As you can see there are different parties: here you can see one (real family: rolf, massimo - check the database and you will see why they keep toghether). But we receive also messages from the other type of breeders..

Massimo and I have no blood relatives, we are friends, if your conclution with the database should stick, I would have a really large family, but in fact I don`t know many people of who my dogs are relatives to their dogs. ...and as Massimo also wrote, we do not always agree, for me it is not necessary for my friends to agree with all my opinions ...I like people who can think for them selves

Quote:

Originally Posted by Admin

We know that many breeders do not check the heart, eyes, or ED. We know some breeders cheat with the HD results

And this is exactly what you encourage people to do, by this politics you are laying for the day ...really nice

Quote:

Originally Posted by Admin

Can you write me a GOOD reasons why in this case we should punish dogs with hear problems and epilepsy and make exception for ED?

Can you write me a good reason why to make an exception for HD B & C ?
...To use your own words : an ill dog is an ill dog.

Will it be possible to know your scourse of your claimed seintific work or is it just as secret as who admin is ?

Btw. I am still missing some answers from admin on post 49, I`m looking forward to hear what you have to say to these questions.

Greetings Rolf

admin · 08-09-2009, 13:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by rolf

If you will remove ALL ill dogs, when will you remove dogs with HD B & C, because they are ill too or do you have a special formula which decide how ill a dog must be before it will be removed from the list ?

I will answer all posts later - anyway small corection. I see you do not know what are the levels of HD and ED....

HD-A and HD-B are HEALTHY dogs. HD-A mean excellent hips and HD-B "not quite perfect but healthy".

The descriptions by ED are DIFFERENT. ED-0 is for healthy hips. ED-1 is already DISPLATIC dogs with light displasia.

Simply said:

ED-1 = HD-C

(and not like you think ED-1 = HD-B)

Juniorwolf · 08-09-2009, 14:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Admin

I will answer all posts later - anyway small corection. I see you do not know what are the levels of HD and ED....

HD-A and HD-B are HEALTHY dogs. HD-A mean excellent hips and HD-B "not quite perfect but healthy".

The descriptions by ED are DIFFERENT. ED-0 is for healthy hips. ED-1 is already DISPLATIC dogs with light displasia.

Simply said:

ED-1 = HD-C

(and not like you think ED-1 = HD-B)

I am very impressed about your knowledge of what I know and what I think

Explanation from the Danish expert who I mentioned earlier is quite different than your statement :
HD B = light dysplatic, but normally with no real health issue.
ED 1 = light dyspaltic, but normally with no real health issue, depending on which illness who caused this result, as ED is a term used for many different illnesses(not only dysplacia like in HD) in the elbow.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Admin

we remove all ILL dogs from the list.

Anyway if you think HD C = ED 1 and ED 1 is an ill dog, why do you allow dogs with HD C to stay on the stud dog list ?

Greetings Rolf

admin · 08-09-2009, 14:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by rolf

Explanation from the Danish expert who I mentioned earlier is quite different than your statement :
HD B = light dysplatic, but normally with no real health issue.
ED 1 = light dyspaltic, but normally with no real health issue

Please LEAVE this "expert"... Ask better google...

wolfin · 08-09-2009, 16:39

when i mas buy new dog, I better buy puppy from HD C one parent but not ED 1. Why? this is explaine in this forum, but I saw, You not wish this understand

starjumper · 08-09-2009, 18:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by wolfin

when i mas buy new dog, I better buy puppy from HD C one parent but not ED 1. Why? this is explaine in this forum, but I saw, You not wish this understand

Ok, you're right.

Now can someone answer the other question?

08-09-2009, 16:39	#9
wolfin Moderator Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Where the wolf lives Posts: 6,095	when i mas buy new dog, I better buy puppy from HD C one parent but not ED 1. Why? this is explaine in this forum, but I saw, You not wish this understand __________________

03-09-2009, 10:45	#3
admin Moderator Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 583	1) The percentage of heriditary of ED is different for different breeds. I found results of scientific work saying ED is more genetic based than HD. And exactly by wolfdog it seem to "work" - the ED problems seem to appear only by the offspring of two dogs. And their lines seem to be "carriers" of the problems. For some years we allowed to advertise such dogs here but it is visible new ill dogs (with ED) are offsprings of the ED dogs. Other lines are CLEAR. So my question to rolf and Runningwolf: ARE YOU ALSO FO BREEDING DOGS WITH HEART PROBLEMS, EPILEPSY, and STRONG HD (HD-D and HD-E)? Because the same arguments we can use also in this cases... I'm for the these: ILL DOG IS AN ILL DOG = NOT FOR BREEDING Sure you can use them if you want but it is at your responsibility...