CW in the UK

[Mikael]

Originally Posted by rolf

I think you two guy misunderstood eachother....

Christian was writing about european and american wolves are differet breeds ...not wolves and dogs

Mikael animals from same family can be different breeds, don`t mix this up

Wolves belong to the family "Canidae" which also includes :
Canis
Vulpes
Dusicyon
Lycaon
...and more.

The genus type of wolves is "canis" which also includes :
Lupus
Rufus
Latrans
Aureus
Simensis
...and more.

The species of wolves is "canis lupus" which includes :
Lupus(grey wolf) - ancestor of all wolves.

Canis lupus aka grey wolf have some subspecies which includes :
canis lupus lupus(eurasian wolf)
canis lupus lycaon(east american timber wolf)
canis lupus arctos(artic wolf)
canis lupus pallipes(indian wolf)
canis lupus signatus(iberian wolf)
canis lupus occidentalis(canadian wolf)
canis lupus dingo(dingo)
canis lupus familiaris(domesticated dog)
...and more.

Greetings Rolf

Yes maybe but as I understand there are all Canis Lupus and not Totaly differant breeds at least and therefore there is no Hybrid´s in dogs neather, scientificly spoken that is...

But I my self would not cross them at all, but I do not se the reasan way Christian think it is totaly wrong, to cross American wolf to CsV but OK to cross European wolf to GSD ???

To me it is OK if it is done by an expert on cross breeding !!! how ever that is very rear but I´m very glad that people before us have cross breed otherwise there would not be any CsV or Saarloos today, or am I wrong

I like CsV but also (unpure) dog breeds like Husky mixes, Alaskan Husky, Tamaskan dog, Tamaskan Wolfdog, American Wolfdog and Swedish Wolfdog, but I will newer cross my CsV whit any of them or a wolf !!!

And I like wolves to much to bring then out of the woods

Best regards / Mikael

[Juniorwolf]

Originally Posted by Mikael

Yes maybe but as I understand there are all Canis Lupus and not Totaly differant breeds at least and therefore there is no Hybrid´s in dogs neather, scientificly spoken that is...

GSD and Rottweiler is also canis lupus, but very different
True hybrids are only ofspring from two different species...

Originally Posted by Mikael

But I my self would not cross them at all, but I do not se the reasan way Christian think it is totaly wrong, to cross American wolf to CsV but OK to cross European wolf to GSD ???

I can not speak for Christian, but to me the difference was :
When European wolf and GSD were crossed it was done by experienced people and with a purpose, and with a very strict selection.
Crossing american wolf and CSW will have no purpose, or what is the whole idea about it ?
When you are a recognized breeder of CSW, you should not use your CSW`s for crossbreeding, if you as a recognized breeder want to breed crosses(does`nt matter what breeds) you should not use dogs from your own kennel, to me that is the main difference.

Originally Posted by Mikael

To me it is OK if it is done by an expert on cross breeding !!! how ever that is very rear but I´m very glad that people before us have cross breed otherwise there would not be any CsV or Saarloos today, or am I wrong

Both SWH and CSW was crossbreeds between wolf and GSD for a purpose, to create a new breed(CSW was only an experiment in the beginning, but later on it was for creating a new breed), do you think the world need more breeds of wolfdogs ? or do you know another good purpose why to crossbreed CSW and wolf ?

Originally Posted by Mikael

I like CsV but also (unpure) dog breeds like Husky mixes, Alaskan Husky, Tamaskan dog, Tamaskan Wolfdog, American Wolfdog and Swedish Wolfdog, but I will newer cross my CsV whit any of them or a wolf !!!

And I like wolves to much to bring then out of the woods

Best regards / Mikael

Christian also have an Canadian wolfdog(a VERY beautyful one), but I am pretty sure, that he will never cross it with anything else, than other American/Canadian wolfdogs, just like i am pretty sure that he will never cross his CSW`s whit anything else than CSW`s.

Greetings Rolf

[Mikael]

Originally Posted by rolf

Do you think the world need more breeds of wolfdogs ? or do you know another good purpose why to crossbreed CSW and wolf ?

Greetings Rolf

No I think that other them to mix in new gene´s to the breeds that we already have today it is not realy necessary to mix whit wolf, however there is many reasans to mix out the wolves mixes whit dogs...

But I agree, FCI say you are not as a FCI kennel to mix breed your pure dogs !!!

And as I already did say, I think mixing whit wolves are to be done by experts on mixbreeding if it is to be done at all...

Best regards / Mikael

[Rona]

Originally Posted by Mikael

And as I already did say, I think mixing whit wolves are to be done by experts on mixbreeding if it is to be done at all...

First of all (if at all), such mixbreeding would have to be done with the agreement and under close supervison of the Slovakian Kennel Club - or whatever you call the body that has legal rights to decide about the development of the breed!!! Any other attempts of cross-breeding wolves into the breed is morally wrong! Especially if the attempts are conducted without close cooperation with breeding advisors and top breed specialists, e.g. people who bonitated and judged lots of dogs, bred many litters, etc. from several coutries - especially the countries of the breed origin- also with scientists in dogs' genetics, experienced vets and dog trainers. If CSV is to remain a working, not just a show breed, as K. Hartl meant it to be, dogs' training potential/abilites would be one of the major selection criterium.

If a carpathian wolf blood (because CSV stems from a hybrid of GSD and a CARPATHIAN WOLF!) is to be added to the breed genetic pool:
1. a proper, at least 20-30 year project should be designed, discussed and agreed upon by above mentioned experts and legal authorities including FCI!
2. clear objectives of the project should be stated and made public and transparent
3. institution or a group of people (?) legally responsible for the project implementation would have to be appointed
4. an international "control board" should be appointed.
3. massive funds should be raised/sposnsors found (?) for this purpose including:

- foundation of a wofldog park, where all hybrids that for various reasons would not used for further breeding would find shelter and could lead decent lives,
- opening of a training station where the "hybrids" would be intensly trained and tested. Only these creatures that pass tough exams and fulfil other tough appearance, character and health criteria could be used for further breeding
- well equiped vet clinic should be opened /appointed where the dogs should be carefully examined, also towards genetic diseases.

Still one should be aware that there will be high costs of such an "exepriment": e.g. a fresh wolf blood insertion into CSV breed may lead to further bans of the breed in the countries like UK, Sweden etc.,

I belive that any other ways of mixbreeding CSV with wolves is amateur, secretive, unprofessional and thus wrong -whether conducted in the UK, France, Italy or the Czech Republic (the Mutaragate) or wherever.

[Mikael]

Originally Posted by Rona

First of all (if at all), such mixbreeding would have to be done with the agreement and under close supervison of the Slovakian Kennel Club - or whatever you call the body that has legal rights to decide about the development of the breed!!! Any other attempts of cross-breeding wolves into the breed is morally wrong! Especially if the attempts are conducted without close cooperation with breeding advisors and top breed specialists, e.g. people who bonitated and judged lots of dogs, bred many litters, etc. from several coutries - especially the countries of the breed origin- also with scientists in dogs' genetics, experienced vets and dog trainers. If CSV is to remain a working, not just a show breed, as K. Hartl meant it to be, dogs' training potential/abilites would be one of the major selection criterium.

If a carpathian wolf blood (because CSV stems from a hybrid of GSD and a CARPATHIAN WOLF!) is to be added to the breed genetic pool:
1. a proper, at least 20-30 year project should be designed, discussed and agreed upon by above mentioned experts and legal authorities including FCI!
2. clear objectives of the project should be stated and made public and transparent
3. institution or a group of people (?) legally responsible for the project implementation would have to be appointed
4. an international "control board" should be appointed.
3. massive funds should be raised/sposnsors found (?) for this purpose including:

- foundation of a wofldog park, where all hybrids that for various reasons would not used for further breeding would find shelter and could lead decent lives,
- opening of a training station where the "hybrids" would be intensly trained and tested. Only these creatures that pass tough exams and fulfil other tough appearance, character and health criteria could be used for further breeding
- well equiped vet clinic should be opened /appointed where the dogs should be carefully examined, also towards genetic diseases.

Still one should be aware that there will be high costs of such an "exepriment": e.g. a fresh wolf blood insertion into CSV breed may lead to further bans of the breed in the countries like UK, Sweden etc.,

I belive that any other ways of mixbreeding CSV with wolves is amateur, secretive, unprofessional and thus wrong -whether conducted in the UK, France, Italy or the Czech Republic (the Mutaragate) or wherever.

Hello

Yes I agree, but we was not talking about CsV blood lines, only if it is right or not to use a pure CsV in mixing whit wolf to create a new breed...

FCI say NO, but Paul lives in UK and aperantly it is OK by DEFRA or UK law to mix wolves X dog or Wolves X wolfdog...

But it has nothing to do whit CsV as a breed as non of this offsprings will ever be CsV, like whit the mutara...

But as I say again, in my opinion NO new mixing whit wolves is necessary to create a new breed, but if I think like you, it is to be done by experts in cross breeding only !!!

Best regards / Mikael

[Rona]

Originally Posted by Mikael

Yes I agree, but we was not talking about CsV blood lines, only if it is right or not to use a pure CsV in mixing whit wolf to create a new breed...

Ok, I understand now.

But I remember somebody mentioning here (though I don't remember who exactly it was) that a further wolfblood should be added to the CSV breed to avoid inbreeding and heredic diseases. I don't know if the person (people?) were correct or not, but I wanted to point out how dificult and complicated the task and process would be if even average scientific, ethical, legal and moral (humane) standards are to be met.

[Mikael]

Originally Posted by Rona

Ok, I understand now.

But I remember somebody mentioning here (though I don't remember who exactly it was) that a further wolfblood should be added to the CSV breed to avoid inbreeding and heredic diseases. I don't know if the person (people?) were correct or not, but I wanted to point out how dificult and complicated the task and process would be if even average scientific, ethical, legal and moral (humane) standards are to be met.

Yes you are right that was me

But I do not expect it to be easy at all, it will be like to start over again...
Hard, expensive and take long time.

But for me it does not have to be a new line whit wolf, it can also be a CsV to GSD, but that is a nother topic i think...

Best regards / Mikael

[Juniorwolf]

Originally Posted by Mikael

Hello

Yes I agree, but we was not talking about CsV blood lines, only if it is right or not to use a pure CsV in mixing whit wolf to create a new breed...

FCI say NO, but Paul lives in UK and aperantly it is OK by DEFRA or UK law to mix wolves X dog or Wolves X wolfdog...

But it has nothing to do whit CsV as a breed as non of this offsprings will ever be CsV, like whit the mutara...

But as I say again, in my opinion NO new mixing whit wolves is necessary to create a new breed, but if I think like you, it is to be done by experts in cross breeding only !!!

Best regards / Mikael

Well this is not what I was talking about !
I am speaking of all breeds, not only CSW.
...I will repeat my self again : if you are a recognized breeder(of any breed), you should not use your pedigree dogs to create mixes/crosses, as a recognized breeder, you should work for the better of the breed which you are a registered breeder for
Example : you are recognized breeder of CSW, then you should only breed your CSW`s with other CSW`s, but if you have another dog(which is not part of your recognized kennel, does`nt matter what breed or mix/cross) then it would, for me, be okey to mix/cross it with what ever you like, as this will not effect your moral obligations to the breed which you as a recognized breeder should work for the better of your breed.
This is regulations of Danish kennel club and I fully agree with this
In other words if you keep your recognized kennel dogs apart from your "hobby" dogs, then it is no problem.

In Denmark it only possible to get pedigree on puppies, where both parrents have FCI recognized pedigree.

Greetings Rolf