ATTENTION poil ouvert .. defaut chez le clt

[indiananous]

Salut,

La portée de Dark sotis à effectivement ce problème.Je l'ai beaucoup moins pronocé sur mon chien mais au touché plus que à la vu on remarque une différence de texture.D'ailleur sur les photos du site l'on ne remarque presque rien.

Effectivement Lorris, quand l'on caresse ces chiens à rebrousse poil , le poil reste hirsute.

Et c'est effectivement un descendant d'Orlik.

Et encore un fois, le pays d'origine c'est bien gardé de nous avertir de ce problème dans la lignée.

Alors c'est sur que ce n'est pas une nouveauté, mais jouer sur la transparence de ce qui nous arrive en France est beaucoup plus constructif pour l'avancé de la race.

Au même titre que les autres tares que nous allons découvrir au fils des années.

Pour récapituler, nous avons déja:

le masque foncé (plutôt facile à éviter maintenant)
le poil long (impossible à prévoir sur une portée)
le poil ouvert (à part la lignée Orlik comment faire pour ne pas en avoir?)
le masque clair (trop recent pour être sur de ne pas en avoir)
l' épilepsie

J'ai oublié quelques choses?

Nadia

[Lorry - MLS]

Oui !!!!! (enfin là, je parle pour moi....)

Le manque de P1 (des 2 côtés de la mâchoire) ..... comme ce sont des dents qui se mettent en place à l'âge adulte, on ne le remarque pas tout de suite....(Chienne qui aura 1 an au terme de ce mois)

A ce propos, si quelqu'un connait le risque réel en % de transmission génétique, je suis preneuse des infos et des conseils, car je n'arrive pas à trouver beaucoup de choses à ce sujet sur Internet

[Margo]

Originally Posted by Lorry - MLS

Le manque de P1 (des 2 côtés de la mâchoire) ..... comme ce sont des dents qui se mettent en place à l'âge adulte, on ne le remarque pas tout de suite....(Chienne qui aura 1 an au terme de ce mois)

A ce propos, si quelqu'un connait le risque réel en % de transmission génétique, je suis preneuse des infos et des conseils, car je n'arrive pas à trouver beaucoup de choses à ce sujet sur Internet

It is not so rare problems by CzW

In some cases the P1 teeth appear later. I know dogs which had missing P1 when they were one year old but everything was OK by the bonitation (18 months old).

If they will not show just make the x-rays. In many cases the teeth are there but do not break through the gum.
If the teeth are there they breed with such dogs - for the bonitation it will be enough to show the judge x-rays and you will not get P14 for missing teeth.
For the dog show the breeders found different solution - they make small operation and the vet cut some part of the gum and make the teeth visible...

[Lorry - MLS]

Originally Posted by Margo

It is not so rare problems by CzW

In some cases the P1 teeth appear later. I know dogs which had missing P1 when they were one year old but everything was OK by the bonitation (18 months old). ...

Je suis d'accord sur le fait que les P1 peuvent se mettrent en place tardivement....mon souci est ailleurs : je souhaite savoir, quel est le % du risque de transmission génétique pour éviter de reproduire le problème à chaque fois que j'utiliserai cette femelle
(si tel était le cas ?)....

Savez vous de quel(s) ancêtre(s), Dheer'Sybb, peut tenir ce problème ??? ou de quelle partie de sa lignée ce problème est déjà connu ???

Originally Posted by Margo

If they will not show just make the x-rays. In many cases the teeth are there but do not break through the gum. ...

En effet, il est prévu que je fasse les radios de sa machoire, la semaine prochaine .....j'en saurai plus à ce moment ....

Originally Posted by Margo

If the teeth are there they breed with such dogs - for the bonitation it will be enough to show the judge x-rays and you will not get P14 for missing teeth....

En tout cas, jugée en France, par une juge Polonaise, ma chienne a été sortie (non classée) à cause de ce seul motif !!!!
(alors même que tous les chiens ont été jugés sur leur seules allures, et qu'à ce niveau-là, elle n'était pas plus mauvaise qu'une autre ....

Donc, le manque de P1 ne semble pas, si anodin que celà .....

Originally Posted by Margo

For the dog show the breeders found different solution - they make small operation and the vet cut some part of the gum and make the teeth visible...

Bien évidement ! Je vais tout tenter avant de considérer que je doive stériliser cette chienne et selon le résultat des radios, je ferai faire inciser la gencive ....

Histoire à suivre ....

[Margo]

Originally Posted by indiananous

Et encore un fois, le pays d'origine c'est bien gardé de nous avertir de ce problème dans la lignée.

The curly coat you can see if different lines...
We had one "funny" case by a czech dog (Axa od Rajské chvojky) - the curly coat appeared there (by some puppies in the litter). The puppies were very beautiful but with open hair. It was funny because there was no visible reason in the pedigree for such coat...
But bred further (mated with dogs with normal hair) the problem dissappeared - and as you can see none of the "z Kopáčkova dvora" dogs which you have in France have any problems with the hair...

Other thing - remember - the coat change with the age. More visible problems have puppies. By older dogs in many cases you can not see that the hair was open. You would really wonder which dogs had open hair at the age of 2 years and are (almost) normal now...

Originally Posted by indiananous

Pour récapituler, nous avons déja:
le masque foncé (plutôt facile à éviter maintenant)
le poil long (impossible à prévoir sur une portée)
le poil ouvert (à part la lignée Orlik comment faire pour ne pas en avoir?)
le masque clair (trop recent pour être sur de ne pas en avoir)
l' épilepsie
J'ai oublié quelques choses?

You right. What you mentioned is pretty often criticized by easy to bred of. On the other side black mask and unclear mask you can change within one generation - only by using good stud dog. Long hair is récessive to short (nermal) hair. The same it seems to be with curly coat.

At the moment we have problems also with:

- open lips (hanging lips) are HUGE problem especially that it comes with too heavy (too doggish) heads:


How many wolfdogs (mostly male wolfdogs) have typical closed lips like for example this dog:

One "but" here - many young dogs have a little bit open lips when they are young. It is nothing wring. But adult CzW should have already closed lips like the dog above).


- wrinkels (too much coat on the head - usualy it comes with open lips) is other very common problem (since short time also visible not only in Czech Republic but also by some puppies in Slovakia what worry breeders there):


- too long tail (sometimes even touching the ground) is still typical problem:


- wrong formats (short legs) are still the biggest problem because almost nobody pay attention that wolfdog should have long legs and dackles get in Slovakian even P14 (alhtough the dogs seem to be "normal"):


Just look on the format of the "number one" wolfdog in Italy:


No wonder that so many dogs in Italy have VERY bad indexes.... But the problems do not dissappear because the breeders and judges do not fight with it... (of course not all - many dogs in Italy are simply great but the most popular lines have really huge problems with it)

- husky coat - you mentined already the long and open hair. But there is other problem - hair like by huskies (wolves have VISIBLE longer coat on the neck, back and tail and by huskies you have the same lengh on the whole body).... But I can not find good photo for it - but you know how siberian husky look like

- short coat - judges do not find it out because such dogs look like shedding dogs. But "naked" the whole year - they never get long and rich "winter" coat:


The dog look like this whole year - it never gets winter coat. And only breeders can "fight" with it because you must see the dog whole year to see if the dogs is really shedding (typical that wolfdogs loose all hair 2 times a year) or really have untypical short hair....

- size - I heard that the judge from last year saw that the dogs in France are very nice and their "level" is not worser (I personaly would say in many cases better ) than in Czech Republic. But by many nice dogs it was visible that they are on the minimum of the required size. Or sometimes MUCH under the minimum. I don't know if the dogs in France are measured by the confirmation but it is another thing which should be followed....

IN ALL THE CASES I just wanted to show you the problems. If any of you dogs have problems I mentioned - don't worry. There are no perfect dogs. Just do not make the problems bigger mating male and females with the same faults but try to make mating so that the problems dissappear...