Offspring´s - Page 2

elf · 16-12-2008, 19:33

Quote:

Somehow it doesn't seem to be SUCH a problem in our breed

Not that hard to find a stud, which is not closely related with your female.

I have a darker view. It's currently not easy to mate two CsV and get a COI less than 20% on the full pedigree (and I guess nearly impossible less than 15%). Nowadays example, last 5 mating announced on this site: 18.53%, 23.72%, 30.89%, 20.78%, 27.10%. These numbers carry meaning.

elf · 16-12-2008, 19:37

Quote:

I read and who? normal articul, I have others but not in english and in hes dr.vet or genetic say others info.

Which publications/scientists and which other info ? Interested...

wolfin · 16-12-2008, 19:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by elf

I have a darker view. It's currently not easy to mate two CsV and get a COI less than 20% on the full pedigree (and I guess nearly impossible less than 15%). Nowadays example, last 5 mating announced on this site: 18.53%, 23.72%, 30.89%, 20.78%, 27.10%. These numbers carry meaning.

please cann thake link to this mate? thanks.

elf · 16-12-2008, 19:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by wolfin

please cann thake link to this mate? thanks.

I did not go complicated

, just took the last five announced on the site:

http://www.wolfdog.org/eng/litters/956.html
http://www.wolfdog.org/eng/litters/953.html
http://www.wolfdog.org/eng/litters/951.html
http://www.wolfdog.org/eng/litters/942.html
http://www.wolfdog.org/eng/litters/940.html

wolfin · 16-12-2008, 19:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by elf

Which publications/scientists and which other info ? Interested...

this be in russish lanquage and You not wright this

and all normal genetic books wright this same.

wolfin · 16-12-2008, 19:44

wright me please in who is bad this pedigree?
not % but dogs name and who is this bad

Mikael · 16-12-2008, 19:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by wolfin

Mikael, in who ways you breed in future- I think You have problem- all dogs have this same blood.

I read and who? normal articul, I have others but not in english and in hes dr.vet or genetic say others info.
and who say true in this case?

Firt of all this is not a topic about my kennel

But if I have good dogs to breed in the future, I will breed...

* As unrelated dogs as possible.
* On good health, as far as I know and can test.
* On as good HD results as possible, but only A and B.
* On as good Bonitation results as possible.
* On good working results.

Hronec Taabernakkelin have a Wright´s Coefficient of inbreeding on 6,1% on 5 generation, therefore I´m not the one whit a big problem here...

But thanks for ansking and careing about me

regards / Mikael

elf · 16-12-2008, 19:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by wolfin

wright me please in who is bad this pedigree?
not % but dogs name and who is this bad

Nothing bad.
Just to show that's not easy to mate dogs and get a COI less than 20% nowadays, this is an indicator for the breed.

wolfin · 16-12-2008, 19:50

Mikael who dogs make couple for You dogs? all dogs who be near your country be familie.
Elf, who You say this I-III, II-III, II-IV, III-III, III-IV, IV-IV, V-V.
this litter who You thake - for me is very interesant and I check who grown puppie and be very glad for this breeders variants.

hmmm I am crazy too.

elf · 16-12-2008, 19:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by wolfin

this be in russish lanquage and you not wright this

and all normal genetic books wright this same.

я отлично читаю на русском

wolfin · 16-12-2008, 19:54

no izvini- niemogu etovo dat

secret info from ones russian kennel.

Mikael · 16-12-2008, 20:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by wolfin

Mikael who dogs make couple for You dogs? all dogs who be near your country be familie.

Yes there you se the problem

I will have to import two female that is as far unrelated as possible

And start to pray for good results

But I think Polen and Germany is fairly close to Sweden

Regards / Mikael

wolfin · 16-12-2008, 20:03

but who linie You wish breed? or make total outcross? have breed plan now who dogs wish ussed?

elf · 16-12-2008, 20:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by wolfin

no izvini- niemogu etovo dat

secret info from ones russian kennel.

Vsyo u vas tam zasecrecheno, hot i SSSR davno ne suchshestvuet

Mozhet byt, v drugoi raz ...

wolfin · 16-12-2008, 20:15

sorry I live in Lithua not Russia and pasport have lithua, and please no name me like russian people, but material have in russish, polish, czech, slovakian lanquaqe.

elf · 16-12-2008, 20:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by wolfin

sorry I live in Lithua not Russia and pasport have lithua, and please no name me like russian people, but material have in russish, polish, czech, slovakian lanquaqe.

Would be glad you make me a sum up of the material you have when you have time.

Nebulosa · 16-12-2008, 20:22

Repeating matings is different to use a stud.
Omar z krotkovskeho dvora was used in a different data in pretty different conditions for the breed.
I don't agree with his use in this way, I don't agree with the fact that people had use so much some studs as Rep Z pohranicni Straze and Omar z Krotovskeho dvora, when at the same time some dogs with different bloodlines get lost in the time because hole litter of lonely mate die without get used in the breed.
But things change and now we have more dogs than at past, more females and more breeders, surelly the number of the litters per dog, principally a famous one will increase, if we compare with the past it will seems even stupid and bad for the breed.
In this topic we are mixing somethings as if it is equal, its a wrong think.
One thing is repeat ever the same litter, it surelly decrease the genetic pool of the breed as the clone litter have no value for breeding, another thing is you use a stud with you know have good bloodline and pass good characteristics one time or with different females and don't repeat again these litters, you do it knowing and waiting good genetic, another thing is you blindly use a male because shows or working titles.

I really don't see problems in dogs like Carr Maly Bysterec or Baron Spod Dumbiera and others like that, wich have made some different litter with some different females in different countries, theyr blood is speeled over world, not all dogs from these mates are used in breeding, some pet dogs and maybe one or two dogs of these litters will get used at breeding, these dogs we all know pass some good qualitys for its offsprings, turning better the quality helping with the breed evolution as well.
The females mated with this dog probably won't repeat ever the same litter with him, even because he is from different owner and sometimes not soo much well common, and well... the owners study the line for make this litter and commonly they find another so interessant dog for mate in next litter, so you will be able to see the blood of this female with some different males, if you want you will use the blood of this female with the blood of this well common dog or not.
No wonder if in about 5 years we have some linebreedings on these dogs with the will to increase a little bit the amount of blood of these dogs in the specific litter, that's happen and is common in all breed.

At other side we have the hiper show well-know titled dogs, wich everyones uses it sometimes blindly because the titles that will help then to sell the litter, not only have him as father but make huge inbreedig and line breeding in this dog, another times without any knowledge about its genetic they make litters with the think that: "if this dog is good and titled, he will makes good litters", and, when you have a hyper used dog, neophites will see only good dogs winning at shows or at the magazines, and will think "this dog is good" without have knowledge that of these 2 good dogs, this same stud made about 50 bad ones wich are almost hiding with owners as Pet, and maybe will appear one good soul wich will study the pedigree of this dog, his offsprings and will see if this dog will be good or bad if mate with his female.

And so, we have here the good character of the stud owner, you as owner will let your dog be used in repeated mates? with females with bad bloodline for him? or let him make inbreeding using him with his daughter?
here enter the good sense and the money question, if someones only care for money, he will let his stud be used for who paid, if the owner have alittle bit og good sense, he will think twice before do that.
This concience will avoid the problems that we can see at south america with dobermann breeding, almost all dobermanns have one dog in line or inbreeding, barely you find dogs that's at least far away of this dog, that's happen becahse this dog was good and the owner surelly don't care much or don't had think about the future of the breed, and let this dog be over used by other breeders, the dog is good, pass good genetic and is pretty know and well titled. For you people had idea about the think of th eowner, the dog is death at more than 5 years and still make litters as father... tecnology rules.

Mikael · 16-12-2008, 20:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by wolfin

but who linie You wish breed? or make total outcross? have breed plan now who dogs wish ussed?

This is still not a topic of my breeding plans or kennel...

However I still are investigating, but when I know, I can tell you in your e-mailbox if you wont to know

Regards / Mikael

Mikael · 16-12-2008, 21:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by elf

Would be nice if this post goes to: "what are the breeding rules, a (new?) breeder, should follow -regarding the situation from now 2008- in the CsV breed ?

About stud dog max offsprings ?
About repeating mating ? Yes, no, how many max times, under which conditions ?
HD pedigree rules ?
COI, should be less than X% ? Or more allowed if condition Y ...

...

What are the thoughts of the (old ?) wise around here ?

Good idea Elf !!!

Regards / Mikael

Mikael · 16-12-2008, 21:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by solowolf

your tecnology was not much use when you insulted me and the breeder of my timber wollf calling it a HYBRID ,,,,,, you can talk the talk but if you cant tell a pure wolf when you see one i wouldnt bother with breeding at all,,,,,, pacino

Sorry, wrong topic

Regards / Mikael

16-12-2008, 19:44	#26
wolfin Moderator Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Where the wolf lives Posts: 6,095	wright me please in who is bad this pedigree? not % but dogs name and who is this bad __________________

16-12-2008, 19:50	#29
wolfin Moderator Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Where the wolf lives Posts: 6,095	Mikael who dogs make couple for You dogs? all dogs who be near your country be familie. Elf, who You say this I-III, II-III, II-IV, III-III, III-IV, IV-IV, V-V. this litter who You thake - for me is very interesant and I check who grown puppie and be very glad for this breeders variants. hmmm I am crazy too. __________________

16-12-2008, 19:54	#31
wolfin Moderator Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Where the wolf lives Posts: 6,095	no izvini- niemogu etovo dat secret info from ones russian kennel. __________________

16-12-2008, 20:03	#33
wolfin Moderator Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Where the wolf lives Posts: 6,095	but who linie You wish breed? or make total outcross? have breed plan now who dogs wish ussed? __________________

16-12-2008, 20:15	#35
wolfin Moderator Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Where the wolf lives Posts: 6,095	sorry I live in Lithua not Russia and pasport have lithua, and please no name me like russian people, but material have in russish, polish, czech, slovakian lanquaqe. __________________

16-12-2008, 20:22	#37
Nebulosa Moderator Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Rio Grande do Sul Posts: 1,334	Repeating matings is different to use a stud. Omar z krotkovskeho dvora was used in a different data in pretty different conditions for the breed. I don't agree with his use in this way, I don't agree with the fact that people had use so much some studs as Rep Z pohranicni Straze and Omar z Krotovskeho dvora, when at the same time some dogs with different bloodlines get lost in the time because hole litter of lonely mate die without get used in the breed. But things change and now we have more dogs than at past, more females and more breeders, surelly the number of the litters per dog, principally a famous one will increase, if we compare with the past it will seems even stupid and bad for the breed. In this topic we are mixing somethings as if it is equal, its a wrong think. One thing is repeat ever the same litter, it surelly decrease the genetic pool of the breed as the clone litter have no value for breeding, another thing is you use a stud with you know have good bloodline and pass good characteristics one time or with different females and don't repeat again these litters, you do it knowing and waiting good genetic, another thing is you blindly use a male because shows or working titles. I really don't see problems in dogs like Carr Maly Bysterec or Baron Spod Dumbiera and others like that, wich have made some different litter with some different females in different countries, theyr blood is speeled over world, not all dogs from these mates are used in breeding, some pet dogs and maybe one or two dogs of these litters will get used at breeding, these dogs we all know pass some good qualitys for its offsprings, turning better the quality helping with the breed evolution as well. The females mated with this dog probably won't repeat ever the same litter with him, even because he is from different owner and sometimes not soo much well common, and well... the owners study the line for make this litter and commonly they find another so interessant dog for mate in next litter, so you will be able to see the blood of this female with some different males, if you want you will use the blood of this female with the blood of this well common dog or not. No wonder if in about 5 years we have some linebreedings on these dogs with the will to increase a little bit the amount of blood of these dogs in the specific litter, that's happen and is common in all breed. At other side we have the hiper show well-know titled dogs, wich everyones uses it sometimes blindly because the titles that will help then to sell the litter, not only have him as father but make huge inbreedig and line breeding in this dog, another times without any knowledge about its genetic they make litters with the think that: "if this dog is good and titled, he will makes good litters", and, when you have a hyper used dog, neophites will see only good dogs winning at shows or at the magazines, and will think "this dog is good" without have knowledge that of these 2 good dogs, this same stud made about 50 bad ones wich are almost hiding with owners as Pet, and maybe will appear one good soul wich will study the pedigree of this dog, his offsprings and will see if this dog will be good or bad if mate with his female. And so, we have here the good character of the stud owner, you as owner will let your dog be used in repeated mates? with females with bad bloodline for him? or let him make inbreeding using him with his daughter? here enter the good sense and the money question, if someones only care for money, he will let his stud be used for who paid, if the owner have alittle bit og good sense, he will think twice before do that. This concience will avoid the problems that we can see at south america with dobermann breeding, almost all dobermanns have one dog in line or inbreeding, barely you find dogs that's at least far away of this dog, that's happen becahse this dog was good and the owner surelly don't care much or don't had think about the future of the breed, and let this dog be over used by other breeders, the dog is good, pass good genetic and is pretty know and well titled. For you people had idea about the think of th eowner, the dog is death at more than 5 years and still make litters as father... tecnology rules. __________________