Offspring´s

Mikael · 15-12-2008, 21:05

I just wonder if there are any recommended maximum number of offspring’s ???

When looking at the planned litters, I noticed that the same dogs shows up on almost every pedigree, whit in the first 4 generation !!! For example Omar z Krotkovského dvora CS whit his 95 offspring’s…

I must say I am no expert on genetic, but to me it looks like some breeders are creating a very narrow genepool, fore future generation of breeders to use.

Personally I think 20-25 offspring’s sounds like a good and healthy number of offspring’s, and maximum 30-35.

And I ask my self if breeders that take over 50 offspring’s really are interested of breeding, or if it is just about the money ???

Sad regards / Mikael

solowolf · 15-12-2008, 22:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikael

I just wonder if there are any recommended maximum number of offspring’s ???

When looking at the planned litters, I noticed that the same dogs shows up on almost every pedigree, whit in the first 4 generation !!! For example Omar z Krotkovského dvora CS whit his 95 offspring’s…

I must say I am no expert on genetic, but to me it looks like some breeders are creating a very narrow genepool, fore future generation of breeders to use.

Personally I think 20-25 offspring’s sounds like a good and healthy number of offspring’s, and maximum 30-35.

And I ask my self if breeders that take over 50 offspring’s really are interested of breeding, or if it is just about the money ???

Sad regards / Mikael

this is great post excellent topic for discussion Mikael hope it gets the response it deserves i aslo check the data base regulary its surprising what you see on it ,,,,regards pacino

Mikael · 16-12-2008, 02:07

Numbers of offsprings 10 topplist on CsV born after year 2000.

47 offsprings 2002.12.31 Baron spod Ïumbiera
48 offsprings 2001.12.03 Batt Malý Bysterec
54 offsprings 2004.01.31 Merlin Crying Wolf
51 offsprings 2000.10.06 Rendy ---Passo del Lupo---
55 offsprings 2001.12.04 Edgar Passo del Lupo
60 offsprings 2004.11.11 Vaicko Passo del Lupo
73 offsprings 2003.04.18 Timber Wolf Arimminum
82 offsprings 2002.10.15 Duncan ---Colle del Lupo---
135 offsprings 2001.04.12 Cutt ---dell'Irco Sortiere---
151 offsprings 2002.10.03 Miky Passo del Lupo

Very sad regards / Mikael

wolfin · 16-12-2008, 02:19

and who You see problem. I like breeder see problemin this offspring- to small % be dogs to breed.
and when good dogs have big offspring is good, moore problem make this same litter with this same dog x bitch.

And who is make breed linie? cann me say who this make?

solowolf · 16-12-2008, 02:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by wolfin

and who You see problem. I like breeder see problemin this offspring- to small % be dogs to breed.
and when good dogs have big offspring is good, moore problem make this same litter with this same dog x bitch.

And who is make breed linie? cann me say who this make?

yes please tell us for it is only way to bring things into open, the breed can not continue in such a way, and breeding same dog with same bitch more times is not in interest of breed but could be for profit only, i say what i think, its better up front than hide things you really want to say, i am very out spoken and rude at times but then i get people to say what they really want to say by doing it, i am nearly finnished with setting up for CWS in uk. 1 we start by registering what pure dogs we have, all dogs health tested, when we breed the pups are registered by breeder, when pedigree is sent to new owner it has clause on it called breeding restriction, this restriction can not be lifted untill dog has past health tests,, if dog fails now pups can ever be registered from this dog, breeder will refund half money for dog and owner if wants to can keep the dog,, before any dog can be bred from it will go in front of pannel of club members the dog will be judged as for breed standard, we have to set up things for this, and decide what what faults are serious to stop dog from being bred from, again the breeder will pay half of money back if dog is not suitable to breed from and may keep dog, we have decided already to set up character test as this for the breed is very important. so we do our bit in uk. to help preserve the breed and make healthy dogs, if you dont want to share name send it to me and i will ask them online pacino

Mikael · 16-12-2008, 16:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by wolfin

and who You see problem. I like breeder see problemin this offspring- to small % be dogs to breed.
and when good dogs have big offspring is good, moore problem make this same litter with this same dog x bitch.

And who is make breed linie? cann me say who this make?

Yes I agree there are more to this then just the number of offspring’s !!!

But when you breed this much on one specific individual it will be hard to find unrelated breeding partners in the future…
As my example whit Omar z Krotkovského dvora CS already shows...

It does not matter if the dog is healthy or not, it is an unhealthy breedplan !!!

I also have become informed of this…

Quote:

"There is also the consanguinity trouble which is directly related to this point, on 5 generations some Crying Wolf mating have a COI of 25% (as reference brother sister mating gives 25% COI)."

If we do not do anything about this now it will be to late, the CsV breed will be a unhealthy and inbreed dog breed !!!

Apperantley the UK understands this already

how about you and your contry ???

Regards / Mikael

wolfin · 16-12-2008, 16:58

You cann breed in 2 ways:
one is planed linie breeding. in this way stay all breeds and best dogs
and breed 2 dogs who you have and not see in pedigree- this be not breeding but only sexturistik. and in this case maybe you have good dogs, maybe not, and not make breed breder only puppies make.

I think You understand who is me way, and who have others breed way.

Vaiva · 16-12-2008, 17:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikael

Yes I agree there are more to this then just the number of offspring’s !!!

But when you breed this much on one specific individual it will be hard to find unrelated breeding partners in the future…
As my example whit Omar z Krotkovského dvora CS already shows...

It does not matter if the dog is healthy or not, it is an unhealthy breedplan !!!

Well, I don't see such a big trouble in this. Let's say that I like a dog who is not alive allready, so I am looking for his son or grandson for mating with my female. Believe me, even if he had about 10 litters, it is so hard to find one... Some are not bonitated or without HD, or I do not like the other bloods that this dog has or the way it looks... A good stud has to be used with various bitches

So that he could pass his goodness to the future generations.

Mikael · 16-12-2008, 17:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by wolfin

You cann breed in 2 ways:
one is planed linie breeding. in this way stay all breeds and best dogs
and breed 2 dogs who you have and not see in pedigree- this be not breeding but only sexturistik. and in this case maybe you have good dogs, maybe not, and not make breed breder only puppies make.

I think You understand who is me way, and who have others breed way.

Yes, but I do not talk about you, or your breeding, you have a breedplan,
I talk about breeders that do over 50 offsprings on some of there dogs !!!
and that is not healthy for the breed !!!

I think you know what I mean

Regads / Mikael

Mikael · 16-12-2008, 17:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vaiva

Well, I don't see such a big trouble in this. Let's say that I like a dog who is not alive allready, so I am looking for his son or grandson for mating with my female. Believe me, even if he had about 10 litters, it is so hard to find one... Some are not bonitated or without HD, or I do not like the other bloods that this dog has or the way it looks... A good stud has to be used with various bitches

So that he could pass his goodness to the future generations.

You do not se a problem whit inbreeding and inbreeding desiases

And litters whit a COI on 25% or more on 5 generations

I am

but glad that you se HD as a problem...

Regards / Mikael

elf · 16-12-2008, 17:53

J. Gubbels - GENETIC MANAGEMENT OF DOG BREED POPULATIONS (2002) : http://www.gencouns.nl/artikelen/200...Management.pdf

Chapters 4 - 5 - 6.

Vaiva · 16-12-2008, 18:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikael

You do not se a problem whit inbreeding and inbreeding desiases

And litters whit a COI on 25% or more on 5 generations

I am

but glad that you se HD as a problem...

Regards / Mikael

You are playing words now. I just say, that not all the puppies of same stud are used in breeding, so it is good if a good stud has a lot of children. Inbreeding is for professionals, there is no need for you or me to use it in breeding.

elf · 16-12-2008, 18:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by elf

J. Gubbels - GENETIC MANAGEMENT OF DOG BREED POPULATIONS (2002) : http://www.gencouns.nl/artikelen/200...Management.pdf

Chapters 4 - 5 - 6.

In this page: http://www.canine-genetics.com/Genetics.htm

You will find again study case of over stud dog use ("The Price of Popularity"), but other articles that breeders should all read.

Mikael · 16-12-2008, 18:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vaiva

Inbreeding is for professionals

Read Elf´s link and get back to me about the proffessional part

I think the problem might be that future breeders will have no choice,
if the population of CsV are totaly inbreed already when they start

Regards / Mikael

michaelundinaeichhorn · 16-12-2008, 18:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikael

Apperantley the UK understands this already

how about you and your contry ???

Regards / Mikael

Calm down Mikael, I thought you Swedes have more sort of an iceberg character

.
Anyway, the mentioned above about the UK is not correct.
The whole breeding so far is based on one bitch (Lynx Legend).
WOLFZONE-Kennel even does a repeating of the first litter (Titan X Princesse).
The other litters from PACINO-Kennel are from Princesse's full sister and her mother Lynx Legend.

Regards,
Michael

Mikael · 16-12-2008, 18:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn

Calm down Mikael, I thought you Swedes have more sort of an iceberg character

.
Anyway, the mentioned above about the UK is not correct.
The whole breeding so far is based on one bitch (Lynx Legend).
WOLFZONE-Kennel even does a repeating of the first litter (Titan X Princesse).
The other litters from PACINO-Kennel are from Princesse's full sister and her mother Lynx Legend.

Regards,
Michael

Do not worry I´m cool...

But it did sounds good on paper, the UK plans

Regards / Mikael

elf · 16-12-2008, 18:50

Would be nice if this post goes to: "what are the breeding rules, a (new?) breeder, should follow -regarding the situation from now 2008- in the CsV breed ?

About stud dog max offsprings ?
About repeating mating ? Yes, no, how many max times, under which conditions ?
HD pedigree rules ?
COI, should be less than X% ? Or more allowed if condition Y ...

...

What are the thoughts of the (old ?) wise around here ?

Vaiva · 16-12-2008, 19:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikael

Read Elf´s link and get back to me about the proffessional part

I think the problem might be that future breeders will have no choice,
if the population of CsV are totaly inbreed already when they start

Regards / Mikael

Please, don't tell me what to do and I will not tell you where to go.

Somehow it doesn't seem to be SUCH a problem in our breed

Not that hard to find a stud, which is not closely related with your female.

Mikael · 16-12-2008, 19:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vaiva

Please, don't tell me what to do and I will not tell you where to go.

Somehow it doesn't seem to be SUCH a problem in our breed

Not that hard to find a stud, which is not closely related with your female.

Sorry, I did mean...

PLEASE, Read Elf´s link and get back to me about the proffessional part

And maby then you will se this all as a problem ???

Best regards / Mikael

wolfin · 16-12-2008, 19:13

Mikael, in who ways you breed in future- I think You have problem- all dogs have this same blood.

I read and who? normal articul, I have others but not in english and in hes dr.vet or genetic say others info.
and who say true in this case?

15-12-2008, 21:05	#1
Mikael Scandinavian Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Stockholm Posts: 1,089	Offspring´s I just wonder if there are any recommended maximum number of offspring’s ??? When looking at the planned litters, I noticed that the same dogs shows up on almost every pedigree, whit in the first 4 generation !!! For example Omar z Krotkovského dvora CS whit his 95 offspring’s… I must say I am no expert on genetic, but to me it looks like some breeders are creating a very narrow genepool, fore future generation of breeders to use. Personally I think 20-25 offspring’s sounds like a good and healthy number of offspring’s, and maximum 30-35. And I ask my self if breeders that take over 50 offspring’s really are interested of breeding, or if it is just about the money ??? Sad regards / Mikael __________________ _________________________________________________ Hronec, Rasty, Zilja Kennel, Wolfdog of Sweden* http://kennelwolfdogofsweden.vpsite.se/Home.html http://www.facebook.com/pages/Wolfdo...53067971392916

16-12-2008, 02:07	#3
Mikael Scandinavian Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Stockholm Posts: 1,089	The CsV breed´s death list ? Numbers of offsprings 10 topplist on CsV born after year 2000. 47 offsprings 2002.12.31 Baron spod Ïumbiera 48 offsprings 2001.12.03 Batt Malý Bysterec 54 offsprings 2004.01.31 Merlin Crying Wolf 51 offsprings 2000.10.06 Rendy ---Passo del Lupo--- 55 offsprings 2001.12.04 Edgar Passo del Lupo 60 offsprings 2004.11.11 Vaicko Passo del Lupo 73 offsprings 2003.04.18 Timber Wolf Arimminum 82 offsprings 2002.10.15 Duncan ---Colle del Lupo--- 135 offsprings 2001.04.12 Cutt ---dell'Irco Sortiere--- 151 offsprings 2002.10.03 Miky Passo del Lupo Very sad regards / Mikael __________________ _________________________________________________ Hronec, Rasty, Zilja Kennel, Wolfdog of Sweden* http://kennelwolfdogofsweden.vpsite.se/Home.html http://www.facebook.com/pages/Wolfdo...53067971392916

16-12-2008, 02:19	#4
wolfin Moderator Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Where the wolf lives Posts: 6,095	and who You see problem. I like breeder see problemin this offspring- to small % be dogs to breed. and when good dogs have big offspring is good, moore problem make this same litter with this same dog x bitch. And who is make breed linie? cann me say who this make? __________________

16-12-2008, 16:58	#7
wolfin Moderator Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Where the wolf lives Posts: 6,095	You cann breed in 2 ways: one is planed linie breeding. in this way stay all breeds and best dogs and breed 2 dogs who you have and not see in pedigree- this be not breeding but only sexturistik. and in this case maybe you have good dogs, maybe not, and not make breed breder only puppies make. I think You understand who is me way, and who have others breed way. __________________

16-12-2008, 19:13	#20
wolfin Moderator Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Where the wolf lives Posts: 6,095	Mikael, in who ways you breed in future- I think You have problem- all dogs have this same blood. I read and who? normal articul, I have others but not in english and in hes dr.vet or genetic say others info. and who say true in this case? __________________

16-12-2008, 17:53	#11
elf Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 766	J. Gubbels - GENETIC MANAGEMENT OF DOG BREED POPULATIONS (2002) : http://www.gencouns.nl/artikelen/200...Management.pdf Chapters 4 - 5 - 6.

16-12-2008, 18:50	#17
elf Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 766	Would be nice if this post goes to: "what are the breeding rules, a (new?) breeder, should follow -regarding the situation from now 2008- in the CsV breed ? About stud dog max offsprings ? About repeating mating ? Yes, no, how many max times, under which conditions ? HD pedigree rules ? COI, should be less than X% ? Or more allowed if condition Y ... ... What are the thoughts of the (old ?) wise around here ?