Italian bonitations

[Nebelwölfe]

Originally Posted by Margo

Die Korungsergebnisse sind nicht ins Datenbank eigetragen, weil laut tschechischen und slowakischen Regeln NUR die Korungen anerkannt sind, die zu den in CZ und SK VERGLEICHBAR sind. Italieniesche Korung erfullt es leider nicht. Fabio (und ein paar andere Zuchter) haben ein grosses Problem mit den Charaktertest gehabt (seien wir ehrlich - fast keine Hunde von ihm wurden den Charaktertest bestehen). Er hat also darum gesorgt, dass der Charaktertest gestrichen wurde, so dass auch extremm scheue Hunde in der Lage sind, sehr gute Noten zu bekommen....

Margo wrote: According to czech and slowakian rules bonitations (in other countries) are only approved, if they are comparable to the ones in Slovakia and Czech Republic. Italian bonitations do not fullfill the requirements. Therfore the results are not listed in database. Fabio (and some other breeders) do have a big problem with test of character (to be honest - hardly any of their dogs would pass this test). He therefore took care, that test of character in Italy was removed from bonitation - so that extremly shy dogs also could get good bonitation codes.

[Angelika]

Thanks, Petra

[Juniorwolf]

Originally Posted by littlepeet

Margo wrote: According to czech and slowakian rules bonitations (in other countries) are only approved, if they are comparable to the ones in Slovakia and Czech Republic. Italian bonitations do not fullfill the requirements. Therfore the results are not listed in database. Fabio (and some other breeders) do have a big problem with test of character (to be honest - hardly any of their dogs would pass this test). He therefore took care, that test of character in Italy was removed from bonitation - so that extremly shy dogs also could get good bonitation codes.

Thanks for translation
This is quit funny, because according to the thread called "difference in bonitation" Cz and Sk bonitations is not all comparable(they jugde in different ways), so they should not even be valid themselves

This raises some new questions for me :
Where is the limit for how comparable they must be or does this only apply for other countries ?
What variation should other countries follow to be sure that their bonitation will be valid, Cz or Sk bonitation ?

Greetings Rolf

[saschia]

Rolf, regarding the difference between SK and Cz bonitation and any of these with It bonitation - you casn see the difference clearly. Both Sk and Cz have character test. Morover, these tests are quite similar, and the judges are exoperienced, so that's why the two clubs do not have problems accepting each other's bonitation codes. And we are cooperatin in making new and better tests, which would be used in both countries.

Italians (meaning the club, not individuals) do not want character tests, so they cannot expect that we will accept their bonitation codes at face value. Even if I do not consider results of character tests in early german bonitation really true (as I know that the dogs are brought up very differently in Germany that Slovakia, so the same test are not good), at least they do make the test and I as a breeder can decide if I am afraid to use Ob dog or not. Also, if character test is done in the country, then the breeders and owners know what to expect and will learn how to bring up the dogs to get results which really reflect the character of the dog.

[Margo]

Originally Posted by littlepeet

Italian bonitations do not fullfill the requirements.

I forgot one more thing - I mean here bonitation made according to the italian rules. Many Italian owners see this problem and decided to make bonitation which fullfil the requirement - such bonitations are made for example by the Czech Club (maybe also by the Slovakian Club) according to the Czech (Slovakian) rules but in Italy. In this case results are valid and listed in database....

[Juniorwolf]

Margo and Sasha

Thanks for your replies

As you might know, I was in Serramazzoni 6.9.2008(at the show 7.9.2008 both of my dogs got 2.place) and saw most of this bonitation and there was a character test with some figurant, so this Italian bonitation should be valid !
...or am I missing something ?

It is not like I have to defend this bonitation(my oldest dog already have bonitation from Cz and my youngest dog was too young even for youth presentation), I just think it is strange that the country with the biggest population of CSW in the whole world don`t get their bonitations recognized and it is a shame, because of thise almost 100 dogs who was at the dogshow, many of them was VERY VERY beautyful and had a quite normal character(I don`t remember any dogs who was extremly shy) maybe one or two was a little shy, but not something that I have not seen in other countries as well.



Greetings Rolf

[Margo]

Originally Posted by rolf

saw most of this bonitation and there was a character test with some figurant, so this Italian bonitation should be valid !
...or am I missing something ?

The owner was with the dog for the whole time?

[Juniorwolf]

Originally Posted by Margo

The owner was with the dog for the whole time?

Yes ! ...I did not think of this ?
But is this really so importent, when(I have read and seen) that such famous and experienced jugdes as for example Sona Bognárová, Jindøich Jedlièka and Monika Soukupová have accepted this during a bonitation ? when for example Cz and SK jugdes have different opinions of how to give the code R1(dry type) + the question about 1cm too little in height = P14 ?

Personally I don`t think one is worse than the other, I think all(also Cz and Sk) bonitations have to have to be exactly the same before some can point fingers at others with small faults ! ...but ofcourse I am not an expert, very experinced in CSW or member of any breedingcommittee, so maybe I am wrong ?

Greetings Rolf

[Nebulosa]

If the dog if with the owner, he is with his pack, its make a huge difference, the dog first see your reaction for take his own reaction agains the helpler, if you're calm why would he be scary? You won't be able to see real character of the dog in this way even a shy dog will have more courageous reaction than normal. It's like you test the character of the dog in his own territory.
Surelly a really problematic dog will show his problems even if the owner is at side, but you won't be able to evaluate the real character of the normal dogs

[Juniorwolf]

Originally Posted by Nebulosa

If the dog if with the owner, he is with his pack, its make a huge difference, the dog first see your reaction for take his own reaction agains the helpler, if you're calm why would he be scary? You won't be able to see real character of the dog in this way even a shy dog will have more courageous reaction than normal. It's like you test the character of the dog in his own territory.
Surelly a really problematic dog will show his problems even if the owner is at side, but you won't be able to evaluate the real character of the normal dogs

But even a shy/nervous dog you can with lot of training make the dog pass the bonitation(and it will still be shy/nervous in normal life), also "normal" dogs who are trained for defence will react very different than not trained dogs, so thise dogs also don`t show their real character, but only how they have learned to react in this situation by training ! when dogs make bonitation in the same place as where they are normaly trained, It's like you test the character of the dog in his own territory(just to use your own words).
After all the character test is not very reliable anyway, how can you compare a well trained dog(IPO or similar) with a family dog who have no training, by the same test and within the 5 minutes it takes.
There is so many factors(upbringing, training, long travel, female in heat, new or known territory, etc....) who play a big role in how different dogs will react in thise 5 minutes the character test takes, that is why I question reliability of the character test.
when that is said, do you still think that this one difference in the bonitation makes such a big difference, considred all the other factors that even an experinced jugde impossible can have a full overwiew about, that it is worser than the Cz and SK jugdes have different opinions of how to give the code R1(dry type) + the question about 1cm too little in height = P14 ?

Still I must say, one is not worser than the other(in my worthless opinion).

Greetings Rolf

[Margo]

Originally Posted by rolf

Yes ! ...I did not think of this ?

Originally Posted by rolf

Personally I don`t think one is worse than the other,

Nebulosa wrote it already... Italian bonitation check if the dog will protect the owner or if the dog will not run away if someone attack the owner (the dog is on the leash so I sure all dogs will pass it because even shy dog can not run away). But it is NOT a CHARACTER test...

Such test says nothing and is for nothing...

Originally Posted by rolf

But is this really so importent, when(I have read and seen) that such famous and experienced jugdes as for example Sona Bognárová, Jindøich Jedlièka and Monika Soukupová have accepted this during a bonitation ?

Ask Sona if somebody said her BEFORE the bonitation that it will be such kind of bonitation? Of course not... So she decided to make her best and (as it is also by the Slovakian bonitation) she already tested the character during the measurements - it is the reason for worser character codes and also why some breeders get crazy. It is also the reason why Mr. Casseli decided to break the bonitation of Miky (he knew that even after changing the character test the dog will get P14)....

Now the Italian club invite only judges which agree to "cooperate".
Now the question for you - could we tell "good judge" about a judge who accept to bonitate as Czechoslovakian Wolfdog animals which are not Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs?

Originally Posted by rolf

when for example Cz and SK jugdes have different opinions of how to give the code R1(dry type) + the question about 1cm too little in height = P14 ?

In the second case (height) you are not right because it is not the difference between Czech and Slovakian judges....

Anyway there are some differences - I would not say the differences are between Czech and Slovakian bonitation but mostly between the knowledge of some people who make the bonitations.
Dog with index of height should get P14 in Slovakia AND in Czech Republic. But in Slovakia the judges pay attention to it and in Czech Republic nobody cares about it...

But as Saschia write - both clubs work on it and I hope not only the (small) differences will be removed but also that there will be some tests which judges / breeding comittee members will pass BEFORE they can make measurements and evaluate the dogs during the bonitations...

[loco]

I think it will be very disapointed when a dog (even standing alone) will be scared off this figurant .
On this picture he has no stick and certain no menace to the dog .

Groette Martine.

[Juniorwolf]

Originally Posted by Margo

Nebulosa wrote it already... Italian bonitation check if the dog will protect the owner or if the dog will not run away if someone attack the owner (the dog is on the leash so I sure all dogs will pass it because even shy dog can not run away). But it is NOT a CHARACTER test...

Such test says nothing and is for nothing...

Well I don`t give much for the character test anyway(as I explained in another post), so I don`t think this change in the way of how the character test is performed will make a big difference. Another thing is that I am pretty sure that a very shy dog will NOT pass the test even if it is on the leash, it would still TRY to get away(leash or no leash).

Originally Posted by Margo

Ask Sona if somebody said her BEFORE the bonitation that it will be such kind of bonitation? Of course not... So she decided to make her best and (as it is also by the Slovakian bonitation) she already tested the character during the measurements - it is the reason for worser character codes and also why some breeders get crazy. It is also the reason why Mr. Casseli decided to break the bonitation of Miky (he knew that even after changing the character test the dog will get P14)....

All people(also Sona) have the possibility to say no to jugde if it is against her conviction to perform a bonitation, dogshow or whatever in a way that she/he do not agree with(nobody put a gun to her head ...as far as I know ?), about what Mr.Casseli did or why he did it, I don`t know ? because I was not there and I have never spoken with him about it.

Originally Posted by Margo

Now the Italian club invite only judges which agree to "cooperate".
Now the question for you - could we tell "good judge" about a judge who accept to bonitate as Czechoslovakian Wolfdog animals which are not Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs?

I really don`t think it is up to any jugde to decide if a dog is pure breed or not, this must be problem of the kennelclub who have registered the dog as purebreed, the job of a jugde is to evaluate the exterior at dogshows and also at bonitations where the jugde also have to evaluate the character.

Originally Posted by Margo

In the second case (height) you are not right because it is not the difference between Czech and Slovakian judges....

Ok maybe it is not the jugdes(I am not all sure who do what in a bonitation), but then it is the breedingcommittee`s who have different opinions about height.

Originally Posted by Margo

Anyway there are some differences - I would not say the differences are between Czech and Slovakian bonitation but mostly between the knowledge of some people who make the bonitations.
Dog with index of height should get P14 in Slovakia AND in Czech Republic. But in Slovakia the judges pay attention to it and in Czech Republic nobody cares about it...

How can one say that one difference is worser than another difference ?
Where goes the limit ? are there any official guidelines for this exact problem ?

Originally Posted by Margo

But as Saschia write - both clubs work on it and I hope not only the (small) differences will be removed but also that there will be some tests which judges / breeding comittee members will pass BEFORE they can make measurements and evaluate the dogs during the bonitations...

If the difference is big or small is very objective, especially if there is no official guidelines for this excat problem.
I am very happy and pleased to hear that SK and Cz clubs are working on it and I really hope that they will come to an agreement on all issues soon and I would be VERY happy if they would take the Character test up for evaluation, so in the future they would have a more wide character test who also takes into consideration the problem about family dogs and trained dogs(IPO or similar).

Sorry for the red color, but I don`t know how to break up the quote in several pieces ? ...so all writing in red is by me !

Greetings Rolf