wolf percentage

[elf]

Personally I'm internally convinced CSVs are a few-percent wolves in behaviour and 70-75% or even more in appearance
Who dares to disagaree with me?

Well I do disagree a little in a sense that all the CSV I met were rather unpredictable and really cannot be compared with GSD. I mean I cannot think to walk off leash in a city or let my little boy with my CSV, things I could do 100% truthful with my GSD. So CSV are in my opinion rather specials dogs (and I think it's protecting them to highlight this point). But I also can agree that I met only not good specimen and failed the education of my CsV mix.

About wolf blood %, even with wolf gene % we would not be able to conclude a lot as it's a non-linear process (+ only few genes are involved triggering a specific hormone responsible for adult behaviour (genes highly inhibited in dogs)).

Dogs are socially well fitted for human world, wolves not, where are located the CsV ? : http://dusk.geo.orst.edu/lydia/doggies_science.pdf

[Rona]

Originally Posted by elf

Well I do disagree a little in a sense that all the CSV I met were rather unpredictable and really cannot be compared with GSD.

Well, I didn't say they were 100% GSD, did I? I said they were a few-percent wolves in behaviour .

Besides, don't get discouraged too easily. We could trust Tina 100% in the woods/fields when she was 2 or 3, but in middle of the city - only when she was about 9-10 years old.

[Mikael]

Originally Posted by Rona

Well, I didn't say they were 100% GSD, did I? I said they were a few-percent wolves in behaviour .

Besides, don't get discouraged too easily. We could trust Tina 100% in the woods/fields when she was 2 or 3, but in middle of the city - only when she was about 9-10 years old.

Yes I have the same experience whit my AUS cattledog to, working dogs are often to lively (wild) to run lose in the city as puppy’s and adults to.
I could have my Cattledog lose in Stockholm first at aboute 8 year of age, but lose in the country side already as a puppy.

But I trust CsV much more then GSD in general, GSD are guarding dogs and much more involved in fatal dog attacks them all Wolfdog breeds, even Hybrids, yes that’s a Fact not gossip, and in % of population.

Regards / Mikael

[Rona]

Originally Posted by Mikael

Yes I have the same experience whit my AUS cattledog to, working dogs are often to lively (wild) to run lose in the city as puppy’s and adults to.
I could have my Cattledog lose in Stockholm first at aboute 8 year of age, but lose in the country side already as a puppy.

But I trust CsV much more then GSD in general, GSD are guarding dogs and much more involved in fatal dog attacks them all Wolfdog breeds, even Hybrids, yes that’s a Fact not gossip, and in % of population.

By trusting Tina 100% I meant her walking unleashed in a busy street, turning her head other side and pretending she didn't see a cat. She was used to running unleashed in parks since she was a pup, but a trained GSD would come to the owner immediately when called. We had to call her ritually a couple of times before she'd turn up. This was her way of showing us her independent nature, saying "I'll come when I wish".

My general observation was that when unleashed she was much more socially responsible - judged the situation and behaved rationally towards other dogs and people- usually approached them wagging her tail but sometimes, to avoid the encounter, she'd turn and pretend there were fascinating "stories" to smell.... When leashed she behaved more like a guard dog... not towards people, but other animals. When she was older, I definitely felt more relaxed when walking her unleashed than leashed.

When working with my husband in the quarries/fields - she was disciplined and patient -no leash was needed at all. She acted the leader/hostess looking after her "pack" and she loved this role. When she disobeyed it always meant that she had a reason, e.g. was able to spot a dangerously hanging rock earlier than people.

If Tina was a typical representative of the breed (which I cannot be sure) my conclusion would be that CSVs are independant & exteremly strong-willed, but grow to be rational animals, provided they are given enough time, trust and opportunity to develop their "intellectual potential".

In 10 years time I'll let you know if my next dog confirms this opinion or not.

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

Originally Posted by elf

Well I do disagree a little in a sense that all the CSV I met were rather unpredictable and really cannot be compared with GSD. I mean I cannot think to walk off leash in a city or let my little boy with my CSV, things I could do 100% truthful with my GSD. So CSV are in my opinion rather specials dogs (and I think it's protecting them to highlight this point). But I also can agree that I met only not good specimen and failed the education of my CsV mix.

Sorry but I disagree absolutely in this point. I have now 20 years of experience as a vet with GSH and about 10 years as a behaviourist and dog trainer (my husbands some years longer) with GSH and CSW and I personally find CSW in general much more predictable with small children than GSH. GSH is one breed I never recommend as a family dog. Though you can´t say that in general - as you never can with any breed - GSH very often have, caused through a very stupid breeding strategy a very low level of response to prey-stimulis and I know many GSH that show preybehaviour on running and screaming kids even when they grew up with them. I never saw that reaction on a CSW that is used to children.
All not reliable CSW I saw where trained in a very stupid way or not proper socialised and I can compare several hundred worldwide.
I also find CSW more reliable in their reactions in general they don´t switch their emotions as fast as GSH and they don´t get that overexited on prey-stimulis.

GSH surely are easier to train and don´t question decisions of owners like CSW but that has nothing to do with reliability. The statistics of Mikael are the same in Germany, if their is a breed that should be on dangerous dog lists (what shouldn´t be with any breed) it should be the GSH.

Ina

[elf]

Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn

Sorry but I disagree absolutely in this point. I have now 20 years of experience as a vet with GSH and about 10 years as a behaviourist and dog trainer (my husbands some years longer) with GSH and CSW and I personally find CSW in general much more predictable with small children than GSH. GSH is one breed I never recommend as a family dog. Though you can´t say that in general - as you never can with any breed - GSH very often have, caused through a very stupid breeding strategy a very low level of response to prey-stimulis and I know many GSH that show preybehaviour on running and screaming kids even when they grew up with them. I never saw that reaction on a CSW that is used to children.
All not reliable CSW I saw where trained in a very stupid way or not proper socialised and I can compare several hundred worldwide.
I also find CSW more reliable in their reactions in general they don´t switch their emotions as fast as GSH and they don´t get that overexited on prey-stimulis.

GSH surely are easier to train and don´t question decisions of owners like CSW but that has nothing to do with reliability. The statistics of Mikael are the same in Germany, if their is a breed that should be on dangerous dog lists (what shouldn´t be with any breed) it should be the GSH.

Ina

Let me detail a little more. About children, CSV are rather more brutal in games than GSD (and get fast and high in pression and are more difficult than GSD to slow down), this way I don't "thrust" them with children.
About walking off leash in cities, it's not safe with CSV as something can disturb them or attract them so high that a step away is always possible (also true for other breed, but I did not see this level elsewhere). Also about the prey drive, I cannot compare CSV prey drive and GSD prey drive (also there're two types of prey drive, the "prey drive and stop" as for dogs working with herds sheeps, and the CSV have not an atavistic stop).
On these points I could thrust 100% my GSD ... maybe she was a unique specimen.

I also met a kind of elistic way of thinking among CSV world, if something goes wrong, the problem comes from the owner because failed on the perfect education line of his CSV... and it's often true, but it's because the CSV is very difficult to handle. So why breeders are always producing more and more CSV ? Number of people able to handle very well a CSV is growing ? It's not protecting the breed to say that CSV are more predicatable or as not difficult as XXX to handle ... Chatting with breeders, reading forums, there is too much this idea highlighted that CSV are not so difficult dogs or not so unpredictable, I have many testimonys of people that are in an impossible situation because they believe too much what was written in forums, and eventually they just cannot cope with their CSV, these famillies are suffering, and at the end this is the dogs who will suffering the most.
My little bet, take randomly 100 CSV, 100 GSD, 200 famillies, put one dog in each families ... I bet more GSD will be happy and more CSV will be unhappy. So, one would say, breeders make the difference choising well the familly ... wrong, they mostly care most about money. So protecting the CSV, is highlighting their difficults points and not the opposite.

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

Originally Posted by elf

My little bet, take randomly 100 CSV, 100 GSD, 200 famillies, put one dog in each families ... I bet more GSD will be happy and more CSV will be unhappy. So, one would say, breeders make the difference choising well the familly ... wrong, they mostly care most about money. So protecting the CSV, is highlighting their difficults points and not the opposite.

Well I take this bet because I know this amount. You know what I think, if someone gets himself a CSW because he really wants something as wolflike as possible or if he gets himself a CSW because he want´s to win an IPO championship this is very likely to fail, the needs of the animal don´t meet the needs of the owner. The same if someone is not able to react selfconfident and cosequent to his dog, this doesn´t work out well too.
And I don´t agree with you on the forum, I never read here that CSW are easy going dogs, just people that think that they are special dogs like every other breed too, if this wouldn´t be the case there wouldn´t be breeds.
I wouldn´t let any of my dogs, of any breed I had, run free next to a crowded road, they are dogs not adult humans. But I do a lot of Mantrail-training in quite big cities, next to crowded roads, passing other barking dogs, my dogs work through traffic, passing dogs, people, cars, through restaurants in a highly concentrated manner, very reliable and much better than the Mallinois and GSH having trained with us.

I know a very good example of someone always saying he wasn´t told the truth. He tryed to get a dog from three experienced and responsible breeders, all three refused to give him one and told him to change to a different breed.
He insisted and got himself one of a breeder that doesn´t care about the place as long as the money works out. He got the promised problems due to his inability to cope with the needs of the dog, he has the opinion that is due to wolf behaviour and hyperactivity, he of course didn´t make any mistakes. He got himself a second one second hand, very bad socialised still very shy till today, that is for him now a CSW out of a "dogtyp working line". He has three other dogs of other breeds, one dog he owned before had to be replaced out of behavioural problems, one of the three may be replaced by know, I don´t know for sure.
If you see him and his dogs they show a behaviour against other dogs my five CSW wouldn´t even dare to think about.
Is this due to not being told the truth? No, the reason is the combination of a unrealistic, irresponsible puppybuyer and a greedy breeder, nothing else. Is this a owner problem? Yes I think so, his first CSW was replaced for some time, I saw it several times, a difficult dog due to his upbringing but a total difference in obidience and general appearance. If you tell him that he will answer that the second owner didn´t take the dog outside that simply is untrue there are a lot of people that know that.

Are CSW are easy going dogs? No, not in general but I know much more difficult and very old breeds they just don´t have the bad luck to have such a big attraction on the wrong people.

Coming back to being too hard playing with children: It is in your responsibility to teach the dog borders in play. Two of our puppies came to very small children around two years of age, they played rude with everybody else but never with those children, one of our dogs had a owner that took her to work with in a home for children, never any problems...

You see there are very good examples for both points of views, again, like in all breeds.

Ina

[Rona]

Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn

You see there are very good examples for both points of views, again, like in all breeds.

Very true!

[GalomyOak]

I often wonder if this website causes problems with our dogs being seen as the dogs they are, and NOT hybrids (especially in the US, where people believe everything they read on Wikipedia):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolf_hybrid

Maybe it is hard for uneducated people to believe that our dogs are not considered hybrids when they google in "wolf hybrid", this link appears first, and the first image underneath the heading "wolf hybrid" is Jolly...

The site does go to explain the dog breeds that have used wolves near the end, but I think it could still be easy to make a mistake if you were not familiar with the CSV

[Rona]

Originally Posted by wildenmorgen

I often wonder if this website causes problems with our dogs being seen as the dogs they are, and NOT hybrids (especially in the US, where people believe everything they read on Wikipedia):

See the original text - it has nothing to do with wolf hybrids.: http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Czechos...owacki_wilczak

Wikipedia can be edited by anybody, thus it's good you've noticed it! I suppose the author(s?) will react after returning from the camp.