'Wolfdogs' of unknown origin - CzW or not?

[Lorry - MLS]

Originally Posted by lupis

Mollyni?re de Lo'Scale has litter of mixes but for you it is ok. My friends told me many dogs with no pedigree and mixes are in germany.

Bonsoir,

Je constates que mon affixe est cité dans une conversation qui laisse à penser que je fais des mélanges de races .....
M. Lupis, vous semblez ignorer une chose toute simple :

Vorss, le chien dont vous parlez, a été Confirmé à titre initial en France, de façon tout à fait normale et transparente .....
Il a été vu par différents juges qui n'ont jamais remis en question qu'il ne rentrait pas dans le standard de la race.....
Il a passé son TAN , ses radios de dysplasie sont A/A......

Dans mon pays, le Titre initial est parfaitement légal et accepté, si l'ensemble de ces critères sont respectés
en aucun cas, je n'ai à rougir de celà !!!!.....

A la suite de sa confirmation, j'ai fait une portée avec lui, afin de voir ce qu'il traçait......Par sécurité, tous les chiots ont été placés à proximité de chez moi, afin que je puisse surveiller leur évolution ....
Ce sont des chiens (qui devenus adultes) qui ne reproduisent pas .....cetains ont même été stérilisés volontairement dans ce sens....

Pour ma part, je n'ai jamais triché sur les mariages, ni jamais remplacé les géniteurs d'une portée au grè de ma fantaisie, ou fais des mélanges avec d'autres races
Depuis 2006, je fais même des tests ADN de mon cheptel.....

Donc, avant de prétendre, publiquement qui plus est, () que je fais des mélanges, essayez de vous renseigner et prenez le temps d'aller à la source, c'est à dire, vers moi et de me poser la question directement ......

Salutations

La Mollynière de Lo'Scale

[wolfin]

Originally Posted by Lorry - MLS

Bonsoir,


La Mollynière de Lo'Scale

sorry but this is ENGLISH forum and please wright english - not french people will this read.

or maybe i mas lithuanian wrigth all

[Lorry - MLS]

Originally Posted by wolfin

sorry but this is ENGLISH forum and please wright english - not french people will this read.

or maybe i mas lithuanian wrigth all

Tout d’abord, je tiens à préciser que si je poste en français, sur le Forum anglais, c’est simplement parce que je ne maîtrise pas suffisamment cette langue à l’écrit et que le sujet est trop important POUR MOI pour que j’écrive avec précision et non approximativement .

Pour ma part, si j‘avais besoin de vous parler personnellement pour critiquer ce que vous faites, je ferai l‘effort de parler dans votre langue, soyez en sûre !!!!....

Dans le cas présent, je sais pertinemment qu’il se trouvera bien une personne sur le Forum anglais apte à traduire mes explications de façon correctes et réalistes ! .......du moins je l’espère !

[koomak]

(sorry but this is ENGLISH forum and please wright english - not french people will this read.

or maybe i mas lithuanian wrigth all )


Sorry but your English is very BAD !!! it s difficult to anderstand you !

Felicitation Lorry for your English

[wolfin]

i know but i wright english not lithuanian
and me english is bad wheil i have only germany in me life. but not see problems

i know this is other situation about frenc language - but ..... i not say

[massimo]

Originally Posted by wolfin

i know but i wright english not lithuanian

I've visited Lithuania twice (Vilnius, Kaunas, Raudone, Jurbakas) and all I know is :
Labas,
Ah tave Miliu,
Alus,
Saltibarciai,
Achiu
Prashau
Atshoak
and my favourite: " kam miegoti iei galì balevoti"

Not enough for translating i'm afraid Daiva!
massimo

[wolfin]

Originally Posted by massimo

I've visited Lithuania twice (Vilnius, Kaunas, Raudone, Jurbakas) and all I know is :
Labas,
Ah tave Miliu,
Alus,
Saltibarciai,
Achiu
Prashau
Atshoak
and my favourite: " kam miegoti iei galì balevoti"

Not enough for translating i'm afraid Daiva!
massimo

this is GREAT )) YES YES YES - You mas comming to II CSV club show in this year - and we make - kam miegot jei gali baliavot

[massimo]

I will try to translate from french to english... it's hard for me so forgivme me for any "grammar" mistakes.... consider the effort and understand the meaning!!

I see that my kennel name is being used during a conversation which makes people think that I amd mixing breeds...
Mr. Lupis, you seem to ignore a simple thing:
Vorss, the dog you mention, has been confirmed as "titre initial" (to be translated as out of registry pedigree or something like that, in Italy it's LIR instead of LOI), in a very normal and transparent way...
He has been seen by various judges who have never put in discussion that he does not belong to breed standard...
He passed his TAN (don't know what it is...) his HD results are A/A
In my country, the "titre initial" is perfectly legal and accepted, if the totality of these requirements are respected.
In any case I should not be ashamed for this!!

Following his confirmation, I made a litter with him, to see what he passes on to his offspring.
To be sure, all his puppies have been placed to owners who live near my home, so I can follow their evolution...
They are dogs (when they will be old) who will never reproduce....some of them have been sterilised because of this intention...

From my side, I have never played tricks on coupling, neither have I ever changed parents of a litter according to my fantasy, or have I never mixed different races.
After 2006, I even make DNA tests on my animals...

Ce sont des chiens (qui devenus adultes) qui ne reproduisent pas .....cetains ont même été stérilisés volontairement dans ce sens....

So, before stating that I make mixes, what is worst it done pubblically, please try to take your time and ask directly to the source, that is to say ask me directly.


La Mollynière de Lo'Scale

[wolfin]

massimo, thanks

[massimo]

I have a small question to make to "La Mollynière de Lo'Scale" breeder.

As you are confident with what you state... would you be available to make a DNA test on VORSS and see if he is a wolf Hybrid?

I believe any Wolf/CSW mix would pass "initial stage" and even bonitation or win dog shows. It would not be enough for me.
Today it is not allowed to introduce new wolf blood into the breed without permission of the owners of the standard (slovak club), this is a fact whether you like it or not.

Do you really know who is father of VORSS?? is there any chance that he could be a real wolf? or another breed, not CSW?
Massimo

[Lorry - MLS]

Originally Posted by massimo

I have a small question to make to "La Mollynière de Lo'Scale" breeder.

As you are confident with what you state... would you be available to make a DNA test on VORSS and see if he is a wolf Hybrid?

En ce qui concerne Vorss, je ne vois pas d’inconvénient à donner un avis favorable à votre demande et faire procéder à un test ADN, mais sachez d’ores et déjà que les résultats seront incomplets car il n’y aura que SA carte génétique personnelle avec ses propres marqueurs......


Sachez que j’ai pris le temps ce matin de contacter les laboratoires Antagène de Limonest (69) pour leur expliquer la situation :
Ils m’ont confirmé ce que je pensais, à savoir que :
Les marqueurs d’identifications génétiques sont spécifiquement aux chiens (ce sont des marqueurs canins) et axé sur la vérification de la lignée parentale qui confirme à 99% que les parents sont bien les bons ..... (encore faut il connaître les parents !.....)
Ce ne sont pas des marqueurs de race : ils ne permettront pas de déterminer si les parents de Vorss sont des loups à 100 % ou des hybrides.......


Comme je suis une personne obstinée, je vais prendre contact avec le Service de Recherche et Développement, pour demander si l’on peut obtenir d’autres informations complémentaires par un biais différent.....

Je m’engage publiquement à vous faire connaître leur réponse.....




Salutations
M.L.S.

[massimo]

This time small condensed translation of what Mrs Leclerc wrote in French:

She writes in french because doesn't know english well enough to reply to certain statements which regard her directly.

For what Vorss is concerned, she has no problem to authorize DNA control, although it is not useful as there is no information about his parents. Info would be incomplete because we do not know his personal "genetical" info

SHe contacted Limonest genetic laboratories: they replied that the genetical identification markers are those of dogs, but they do not identify the breed, so they do not allow to know 100% if Vorss parents are hybrids or wolves.
She will contact "service for research and development" to ask if she can get further information and publically engeges herself to let us know their reply.

[massimo]

This is my small personal comment:
I am positively surpised to see such open discussion from a breeder about how she workes, usually breeders reply to do your own business and to gain experience before critisizing or even commenting their work.
This doesn't mean I agree with her work of course, I find it risky to breed on dogs who's parents are unknown.
Surely the "goal" of Mrs Leclerc is totally different from that of the "mutara project", although a process for LIR has been made...and after LIR there is LOI, meaning official papers and freedom to breed within the breed itself.
This scares me a bit and make me think and suggest to all others to look very carefully at what dog you are purchasing, to be very careful when you see dogs with tricky or not 100% known ancestors on Pedigree.
Massimo

[lupis]

Originally Posted by Lorry - MLS

Vorss, le chien dont vous parlez, a été Confirmé à titre initial en France, de façon tout à fait normale et transparente .....
Il a été vu par différents juges qui n'ont jamais remis en question qu'il ne rentrait pas dans le standard de la race.....
Il a passé son TAN , ses radios de dysplasie sont A/A......

But is Voors wolfdog? In Italia Fabio registered LIR real wolf mixes and was no problem. It must be not czech wolfdog to register with LIR. You can register all dogs look similar like czech Wolfdog. Why you breed Vorrs - can you show it is REAL czech wolf? Is is ok to breed not pedigree dogs?