Tail

[furyos]

ok nebulosa if yu like this type it s yur opinion but for me it s not typical good expression.....sorry a lot of bad pics it s not a proove..........yu can show me all pictures of the world with bad tail y don' t change my idea...........but just proove one things it s very important to note this problem......... not best position.........y wait other opinion from other judges in slovakia.........y send some mail in this way to know more exactly ...........best regards........

[Nebulosa]

Originally Posted by furyos

ok nebulosa if yu like this type it s yur opinion but for me it s not typical good expression.....sorry a lot of bad pics it s not a proove..........yu can show me all pictures of the world with bad tail y don' t change my idea...........but just proove one things it s very important to note this problem......... not best position.........y wait other opinion from other judges in slovakia.........y send some mail in this way to know more exactly ...........best regards........

That's the question Furyos, none of the dogs I show the pictures have problems in the tail, but, at the moment of the photo they're excited.
Iowa Eden Severu was A63 Of P1 at bonitation if she had problems as curly tail will appear "Wrong position" at bonitation, wont? Jaberwock z Peronówki has one Very Promossing with Slovakian judge Oskar Dora as was the best puppy with Bozena Ovesna from Czech, he probably won't receive it if have an atipical tail.
You cannot judge the tail without know how do it, some people made the same error as you're doing now.
You may look at the basis of the tail, so you can judge the longer of the bones first, after for the isquian bone position and you will be able to judge the port of the tail for arrive the conclusion, the set, principally for dogs with long tail full of movement means nothing for judge the tail position.
I think i'm wasting my time with you, but i'm sure it will help some people that wans learn more about how judge tails properlly for arrive to his own conclusion.

[furyos]

yes y think yu loose yur time with me because yu couldn t proove yur theories just with this arguments...........a lot of pupp can have best pupp in dog show and with pb of tail .....it s not a prove ...... best regards and good "reflections" ............f.(and good night)

[wolfin]

SK, LT club junior winner, BALT junior chempion


club winner'07


club winner, Lithuanian winner, multi CAC, BOB


World winner'06, Multi CH, Multi winner, Multi CAC, CACIB, BOB


World winner'06, Multi CH, Multi winner, Multi CAC, CACIB, BOB & SK, LT club junior winner, BALT junior chempion



SK, LT club junior winner, BALT junior chempion & club winner, Lithuanian winner multi CAC, BOB


this dogs i have see in latest CACIB dog show in Lithuania, this dogs is from Czech, Poland and Lithuanian. Hes have great charakter, and ALL judge say - "exelent temperament, moveming and character".

when i see dogs with tail in down position- (bell position) this dogs not like, me when more % hes have not good charakter.


p.s. to furyos - i am FCI judge and wolfdog expert, not allraunder judge

[Angelika]

Thank you, Paula and Wolfin, but furyos does not want to understand - because of his battle against Furcas z Peronowski

If you have a look at the owned dogs it seems 4 or 5 French breeders are extremely under "Hungarian influence" at the moment, and some of them prefer dog shows in France, Switzerland and Holland more than in the countries of origin.

cheers
Angelika

[furyos]

hi wolfin.......YHANKS FOR YUR PICS ;;;NO PROBLEM FOR THEM ;;;Y UNDERSTAND AND AGREE ABOUT THIS POSITION ;;;; BUT NOT WHEN IT S CURL IN THE END ......... SOME YU SEND ARE 100% OK ;;.. DON 'T WORRY ....Y KNOW YU ARE JUDGE5WE EVER TALK LAST YEAR° BUT THE DOG WHO Y SEND PICS5FURCAS ° DON T HAVE EXACTLY THIS POSITION ;;;IT S CURL ;;;; DO YU UNDERSTAND WHAT Y WANT EXPLAIN? Y RESPECT COUNTRY FROM ORIGIN OF OUR BREED ........ AND IT S FOR THAT Y TALK ABOUT BECAREFULL WHEN WE HAVE NORDIK TAIL ON RING ....THAT4S ALL ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;FOR ANGELIKA : YES FRANCH LIKE HUNGRIA WOLFDOG /POLSKI/ ITALIAN/SLOVAK/ TCHEK/BELGIUM/ RTC ETC ;;;; WHY YU TRY TO DISCREDITE HUNGRIA DOGS? JALOUS????????????????Y DON T UNDERSTAND YUR REACTION IF AS SOON AS WE TALK ABOUT A DEFAULT YU DICREDITE ONE KENNEL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! RESPECT IS NOT YUR NATURE?FOR ME Y FIND GOOD THINGS IN DIFFERENT BLOOD LINE IN ALL COUNTRIES ........... DON T TRY ANY POLITIK MANIPULATION TO HAVE RESPECT FROM ORIGIN COUNTRY ;;;;;;;;;;; Y CAN UNDERSTAND YUR VOLONTY TO DO THAT IF YU NEED SOMETHING ABOUT THEM ;;;;; POWER PERHAPS OR WHAT????? BEST REGARDS ANGELIKA ..........

[Nebulosa]

Originally Posted by furyos

hi wolfin.......YHANKS FOR YUR PICS ;;;NO PROBLEM FOR THEM ;;;Y UNDERSTAND AND AGREE ABOUT THIS POSITION ;;;; BUT NOT WHEN IT S CURL IN THE END ......... SOME YU SEND ARE 100% OK ;;.. DON 'T WORRY ....Y KNOW YU ARE JUDGE5WE EVER TALK LAST YEAR° BUT THE DOG WHO Y SEND PICS5FURCAS ° DON T HAVE EXACTLY THIS POSITION ;;;IT S CURL ;;;; DO YU UNDERSTAND WHAT Y WANT EXPLAIN? Y RESPECT COUNTRY FROM ORIGIN OF OUR BREED ........ AND IT S FOR THAT Y TALK ABOUT BECAREFULL WHEN WE HAVE NORDIK TAIL ON RING ....THAT4S ALL ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;FOR ANGELIKA : YES FRANCH LIKE HUNGRIA WOLFDOG /POLSKI/ ITALIAN/SLOVAK/ TCHEK/BELGIUM/ RTC ETC ;;;; WHY YU TRY TO DISCREDITE HUNGRIA DOGS? JALOUS????????????????Y DON T UNDERSTAND YUR REACTION IF AS SOON AS WE TALK ABOUT A DEFAULT YU DICREDITE ONE KENNEL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! RESPECT IS NOT YUR NATURE?FOR ME Y FIND GOOD THINGS IN DIFFERENT BLOOD LINE IN ALL COUNTRIES ........... DON T TRY ANY POLITIK MANIPULATION TO HAVE RESPECT FROM ORIGIN COUNTRY ;;;;;;;;;;; Y CAN UNDERSTAND YUR VOLONTY TO DO THAT IF YU NEED SOMETHING ABOUT THEM ;;;;; POWER PERHAPS OR WHAT????? BEST REGARDS ANGELIKA ..........

I thoug you will note this detail



because there the tail is exactly like Furca's Tail on some photos.
Nordic tail on the ring, where? all CzW tails on the fotos have long caudal basis bones as they have a relactive long isquian, so, cannot be curlied.
You need quickly studie dogs dinamic and morfology for be able to judge properlly even the work you're done.
Why are you screaming?! Cap's look on internet lenguage means screaming isn't polite way to write and can sound's agressive for who read.
Nobody try do a "politic manipulation" we are not talking about politic as nobody told that lack respect with the origin countries, what she write is truth, you have a very personal war against Furcas as someone can read on french forum, you no need hide it, it's public already.

[wolfin]

hmm i think very good litter with EXELENT character have in France Eligo and Geryon litter, i not kann what character have Eligo girls, but Geryons girl is demo version - super working and REAL wolfdog character. maybe this dogs help to beter from alls dogs with character problems

in photo cann see whe like dogs in dogs show, and..... i not see hapy dogs and when not see hapy i think (yes only think in this situacion) hes not have very strongs characters

and about this situation thake very big information....workings diploms, in French or holand or hungary IS working exams and good treners (i know personaly people from this coutry- dog trainers) but..... whe big % wolfdogs have exams? only BH, only IPO B? only OB? hmmmm?

the best is for this coutry have normal bonitation whit good character test and breed only good dogs with good temperament - and in this case not you have latter diskusion about tail problems .
now breeding with dogs show rezults and only HD rezults (or breed with not HD results) is .... not good breeding work - this is "fast breeding biznes"

and p.s. latest photo with 2 dogs : is WW harmonia edens severu and.... Geryon z Peronowki with UP tail positions

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

Maybe if you would use the classical whole sentence sheme and wouldn´t mix up comments to the breed with sarcastical attacks on people that don´t share your opinion, your postings would make more sense and people would care more about their content.

Ina

[lupis]

Originally Posted by furyos

if dog is quiet :tail down.(like first wolf on pics)..but if dog is in action or in exiting :tail up like yur picture(second wolf on) ...

But dog can be dominant and not only excited. Exciced tail is over back but not very high. Dominant wolves have tail very much up. How many woves do you see which were dominant to you?

Originally Posted by Angelika

If you have a look at the owned dogs it seems 4 or 5 French breeders are extremely under "Hungarian influence" at the moment, and some of them prefer dog shows in France, Switzerland and Holland more than in the countries of origin.
Angelika

Thank you for explanation. I see hungarian dogs imported to my country and now i know what Furyos writes. Hungarian dogs are very much shy and they never has tail up. Furyos can write tail up is not good because his dogs will never have such tails...

[Navarre]

I'm the owner of Beau Isabeau z Peronowki.
I think that she (and worser Furcas as seen in these photos) bring the tail too curly at the end and it is not very nice to see. In the bonitation Isabeau take a note (but not a code) about this.

This curly end has nothing to do with dominance or other things, is a way to bring the tail that at rest is straight.

A straight tail should be better, or should be preferable.

On the other side I don't think this is a so terrible fault that can put dogs with this fault out of breeding...you can repair it by compensation,as you can see in this photo :


On close up Last Navarre (straight tail), at right Isabeau (curly tail) and at left their puppy Anastasia (mid-curly tail)

[lupis]

I do not understand..... If Mirka from Czech writes:

Originally Posted by Mirkawolf

This is sickle - so that´s the correct way of carrying tail when the dog is excited.

why you write?

Originally Posted by Navarre

This curly end has nothing to do with dominance or other things, is a way to bring the tail that at rest is straight.

A straight tail should be better, or should be preferable.

If Mirka is writing right then on your photo Last Navarre has wrong tail (too much stright) and good shape have Isabeau and Anastasia (i preffer Anastasia but it is my privat view). Because Last Navarre have "sword" and not "sickle". So why on the bonitation wrong is the tail which is in the standard? Maybe Mirka can explain it to me better because i am confused now...

[Navarre]

Originally Posted by lupis

If Mirka is writing right then on your photo Last Navarre has wrong tail (too much stright) and good shape have Isabeau and Anastasia (i preffer Anastasia but it is my privat view). Because Last Navarre have "sword" and not "sickle". So why on the bonitation wrong is the tail which is in the standard? Maybe Mirka can explain it to me better because i am confused now...

Non ti fissare su una foto, per altro in movimento, che ha poco senso. E non ti fissare su un disegno che ne ha ancora meno!
Isa ha un ricciolino finale che non è bello a vedersi e lo ha solo quando è eccitata mentre a riposo la coda è diritta...si ved bene nelle foto di Furcas, che ha lo stesso difetto anche più accentuato.
La coda di Navarre invece fa un arco a parabola, senza il ricciolo finale ed è la coda corretta.

[lupis]

Originally Posted by Mirkawolf

I´ve found image of "excited" dog on dog show, carrying its tail in the classical "sickle" shape. Here it is:



The male dog on the photo is Brave Odin z Verne smecky, photographed
on Club Dog show in Litomerice, Czech Republic.

I have idea. Maybe right tail in this shape have only working dogs And for Mirka it is very normal because in czech many people make exams with wolfdog. Brave is in database ZZO, ZOP. And in france no so furyos your dogs have no reason to be proud and no reason to have tails like this....

[Nebulosa]

Still no curly tail on photos, please not make confusion.
All dogs have long basis bones on the tail and pretty same pelvis format, that impeach the tail to be curly.
For the tail be curlied the bones in the basis of the tail cannot be long, as the isquian must be high, this afect directly on the movimentation of the dog so, a curlied tailed dog will show different or atipical movimentation, probably wrong angles.
We have two different words ( that I not know in english) for these two tipes of curly tail, one is like Basenji, really curly.



Other is like Akitas and Alaskans Malamuts.




In the set of the tail we can find normally the J format even in wolves as exprection, this can happen even when the tail was broken when the dog was really little.



This format can appear because accident ( silly broken at point), because tail format, because tail size as because dog emotions, it will made the dog almost touch the back when carring the tail in dominant upper position.

Wolves tail are full of moviment and life, so, you can find wolves carring the tail in sicke shape and sabre as with the point in J.




But you will never find a wolf with curly tail, as I never find a wolfdog with curly tail.

Have 2 defects on the tails, one is called Scorpion Tail, isn't so serious but isn't wished, the last tail part turn up at back of the dog, like a scorpion tail, if not deceif-me happen because musculature problems ( to happen on wolves), and we can have death tail, serious problems that means or the bad formation of the neural tail side or by accidents, dogs wich had broken the tail in the basis.

[mijke]

Originally Posted by Navarre

Non ti fissare su una foto, per altro in movimento, che ha poco senso. E non ti fissare su un disegno che ne ha ancora meno!
Isa ha un ricciolino finale che non è bello a vedersi e lo ha solo quando è eccitata mentre a riposo la coda è diritta...si ved bene nelle foto di Furcas, che ha lo stesso difetto anche più accentuato.
La coda di Navarre invece fa un arco a parabola, senza il ricciolo finale ed è la coda corretta.

My knowledge of Italian language is very bad And I am to tired to visit now language translation programmes
So please, maybe you can translate this for me!

Since I was a child I did learn (my father was a breeder) that for a lot of things you have to feel / touch a dog (for example touch : tail, fur aso) before you judge!

In Nordic breeds you "can feel" the real curl in the tail even when they are not exited.
And there is a big difference in “feeling” when you touch the tail of a CsW (with always tail up when he/she is exited) when he/she is in rest, comparing with the tails of Nordic breeds in rest. Maybe everyone has to try these kind of things on several dogs before accusing each other……..

But at he othter hand, I am also not a fan of "over done " exited tails of CsW's
And I agree complete with the answer of Ina
For me it is a pity that such interesting things are not to discuss normal in this forum

@ lupis, you did write: "Hungarian dogs are very much shy and they never has tail up"
I back you pardon, but how many Hungarian dogs did you see ( or feel )

I did see a lot of them with tails up when they were exited And I did have for a time a replaced Hungarian male in my pack, and I can assure you that he was very self confidenced and did have his tail up when he was exited! (and even Mirka can assure this)

At the other hand… in this topic there is also a picture I did made in a Belgium show of a CsW without any tail up! And this picture is for me the ultimate how a CsW has absolutely not to be!!!!!!!!
And when I think about and look at this dog, his behaviour, his appearance, then I think it is better not to quarrel any longer about a bit more or less curl in the tail when a CsW is exited.
But is more important that all CsW breeders work together to provide that such CsW’s (also in West Europe ) will not be ever breed again…….



In first place personal I feel very, very sorry for this dog that he did to come out on a show where he did feel so very uncomfortable ….,
And second place for his owner to bring such a dog on show .....
And third for his breeder who had the bad luck to breed such a CsW…..

[Navarre]

Originally Posted by mijke

My knowledge of Italian language is very bad And I am to tired to visit now language translation programmes
So please, maybe you can translate this for me!

Almost the same things I said in the message with the photo of 3 dogs. Lupis as far i know is italian.

Originally Posted by mijke

At the other hand… in this topic there is also a picture I did made in a Belgium show of a CsW without any tail up! And this picture is for me the ultimate how a CsW has absolutely not to be!!!!!!!!

I think that in this thread there are 2 different topics : character of csw and shape of tail.

The dog in this photo hasn't a brave character or is not properly socialized, but in another situation the same dog could have the tail up ! Don't forget that shy dogs are shy with humans and environment that they don't know, but aren't shy with other dogs or versus known people, for example.

So the character has small to nothing influence on the shape of tail.

About shape of tail : maybe I can't explain, but for "curly" obviously I' don't mean the dogs shown by Nebulosa...OK doesn't exist any csw with tail like a malamute, on this point we all agree.

A picture can explain what I think and what I mean :



For example my Isabau at rest has a normal tail but when excited is without doubt "curly". On the other side I saw many csw that have curly tail ("hook") even at rest.
And many times the tail, looking from the back, turn to the left or to the right, as Nebulosa said.

I think (but is not a LAW ) that the preferable tail is "straight" at rest and when excited and should not go left or right.

[Mirkawolf]

You know guys, I am rather fascinated, how many posts this thread already has, on such silly topic of what the shape of the tail should be, when carried high up

It is a pity, that there is not so many responses, when the shy character of the dogs is discussed, or that owners should work with their dogs as well, instead of just dragging them around dog shows.

I can tell you one thing - I´ve been on plenty dog shows or bonitations in Czech republic, judged by experienced judges, CSW specialists. And not a single judge paid any attention to in what shape the dog carries his tail, when excited! Because it is not important thing at all... The only thing the judge penalises, is the so called "hook" on the tail, which is fault that is seen only if the dog carries its tail down calmly.

Unless the tail would be carried like in basenji, which would indeed be weird, it is of no importance and there are much more important things in the standard, that should be followed and concentrated on!

Great faults like dark eyes, loooooooong tails, looooooong ears, black masks, light heads, missing teeth or character faults like great shyness - that´s what you should discuss and try to avoid in breeding. These are important faults against the standard and they make Czechoslovakian wolfdog to look either like German shepherd in wolf-grey colours, or worse, like a shy jackal.

[furyos]

hi mirka we never say that .... it s not the biggest default in the breed but it 's not really nice and it 's shame when this position is like that ...give an opinion is not a scandal ..not?about this caracteristic is necessary talk about ...that'all ..best regards ... frank

[Mirkawolf]

Originally Posted by furyos

hi mirka we never say that .... it s not the biggest default in the breed but it 's not really nice and it 's shame when this position is like that ...give an opinion is not a scandal ..not?about this caracteristic is necessary talk about ...that'all ..best regards ... frank

It´s a shame? No it isn´t. This is a shame:


Dog scared because person is approaching? Shame!

[IMG]http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l72/Mirkawolf/DSC_0132.jpg/IMG]
The same dog - what a horror, he is being measured!


On a dog show ... group of wolfdogs trying to avoid a stranger
touching them - only they have no place left to escape. What a shame and bad reputation for the breed!


And what to say about this unfortunate shy sack of bones?

Now you of course can say, that every one of us have different opinion on what is shame, when looking at wolfdogs. Well, this is how I see it.

Sorry for the white around the pics, I don´t have better program here at work to crop (and I wanted to cut out the breeders/owners from the pics).

I am affraid we are again off topic