Tamaskan CsW crossing

Ligerwolve2 · 31-10-2012, 14:12

So what your saying is any breed that wasnt created by someone who is a scientist should not exist?

Im not saying that these things shouldnt be entered with extreme care. I think there is a huge amount of work that should be done before mating etc.

Perhaps you dont realise how common this is? New breeds are created all the time.

I would rather have imput into what is happening, help guide the individual to the best options rather than see them sneak behind my back and use the worst combination and then quit half way through and leave a trail of cross breeds.

Secondly you realise that CzWs while being a fantastic example of how to go about creating a breed is still seen as "new" and more of a fad and designer dog by some in the dog community. That others think CzW breeders are "amateur". I bet people just love hearing that. Bet it makes light of all the hard work that has gone into this wonderful breed. Im sure its quite far from the truth. Untill I hear from this person in question myself I would not go around labelling them as anything. Again I would rather steer them in the right direction which you wont get the chance to do if you come across as aggressive.

They may lose registry to start with but would they not then later be registered as a foundation bitch/dog?

One more time I think you will not stop this happening. All breeds see it. The question is how will you as a community handle this? By insulting another breed? By throwing a tantrum? Or by sharing some of your wisdom?

Whether you like the breed or not they are trying to create it and from what I understand they have used CzWs before.

Ligerwolve2 · 31-10-2012, 14:14

Also I think you are wrong that no early hybrids made their way into private hands, but I cant prove it at this time.

wolfin · 31-10-2012, 14:45

only tamaskan have falsh hystory ( wolf like dog without wolf blood, but they have sarlos, csv, american wolf mix and who know moore) no have any breeding plan ( only a couple people producing theys dog) any line, any breeding program. Sorry maybe you not like this, but I see this when a few hours sit and read all data basa in tamaskan web page. nice fairytalle, but not very believe in good results.
and yes I agree with Rona 10000%.

leila · 31-10-2012, 15:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by wolfin

only tamaskan have falsh hystory ( wolf like dog without wolf blood, but they have sarlos, csv, american wolf mix and who know moore) no have any breeding plan ( only a couple people producing theys dog) any line, any breeding program. Sorry maybe you not like this, but I see this when a few hours sit and read all data basa in tamaskan web page. nice fairytalle, but not very believe in good results.
and yes I agree with Rona 10000%.

this part is the most important in this whole thing... only wolf looklike, no wolf blood!!! so what about creating a new breed or fresh blood??? fresh wolfblood for good look? you are creating mixes, that are not at all tamaskan breed. it should be only dogsg like NO or siberians, who look like wolves, but have NO WOLF BLOOD!

yukidomari · 31-10-2012, 20:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by leila

you are creating mixes, that are not at all tamaskan breed.

being that the 'registry' approved this cross means that the dogs are currently simply mixed breeds to begin with.. not a breed, anyway.

Nebulosa · 02-11-2012, 03:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by leila

this part is the most important in this whole thing... only wolf looklike, no wolf blood!!! so what about creating a new breed or fresh blood??? fresh wolfblood for good look? you are creating mixes, that are not at all tamaskan breed. it should be only dogsg like NO or siberians, who look like wolves, but have NO WOLF BLOOD!

Even being a Finnish breed, wasn't tamaskan a breed selected mainly in UK?!
Sometimes I have the feeling that Tamaskan was made ALSO as a way to hide wolfblooded animals from specific rules that had put "wolfdogs" in "dangerous dog list".
I really dont see any sense in the existence of this so-to-say "breed" .

yukidomari · 02-11-2012, 19:04

anyway, pointing to 'Jennie' or whomever as Blustag/Blufawn as the source of the inaccuracies/outright lies in the history of these dogs is a convenient 'fall guy', for sure, for the newly-chaired 'TDR', since several members repeated her same claims often enough. For example, why now does the 'TDR' admit that Oskari was indeed used? What changed? Has there been conclusive DNA evidence to refute the previous position? Oskari (Oxbow Leva Neve) has long since passed away, but for many years there was already word that he was the sire of several of the dogs imported from Finland.

And about temperament - the CzW temperament has long been criticized by this group. And now several claim they know the progeny of Oskari and other CzW mixes with temperaments they like, so according to this, not a reason not to cross them. My question - why breed something and hope you DON'T get the associated temperament? Why not breed FOR something you want instead?

And lastly, with the admitted inclusion of wolf's blood, what's the difference between this group of dogs and Saarloos?

Czertice · 03-11-2012, 13:38

From what I understand, they are trying to create a breed that looks like a wolf, but has the temperament of labrador. A dog for all the people who love wolves, but are not prepared to deal with one in their own house. A dog for all those unhappy/uninformed people who obtain a real wolfdog only to find he is NOT a poodle.

Right now they are at the stage of a wide range of crosses of saarloos, csw, husky, american wolfdog, malamute and whatnot. The temperaments differ accordingly. Those dogs are inbred already, there is no other option than outcrossing or letting yet another wolf-lookalike experiment fail.

There are CSWs mixed in northern sledding breeds already, but I don't see CSW breeders fainting in horror at the impurity of such mixing. Why? Because no one puts up notices of such matings on internet.

Seeing how many such experiments of creating a wolfy dog already happened, we should be glad that there is one underway which is open about the founding animals and shares information with the public. If they succeed in their goal, i suppose there won't be as many people willing to cross CSWs to create the mythical wolfdog without the wolf.

Puma · 03-11-2012, 13:49

First of all, it has not been 'open', the breeder didnot inform the NVTW, the Dutch Czechsolovakian Wolfdog association, at which the breeder is registered. So 'open' is not that open.

Second, being 'open' doesn't mean being right, is it?

A criminal act in public, is still a criminal act, just to put it in perspective.

To me this is not so mich about the intentions of the Tamaskan side, but all about the intentions of the CSW breeder. And her intentions are purely commercial: making money.

Angelika · 03-11-2012, 18:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nebulosa

Even being a Finnish breed, wasn't tamaskan a breed selected mainly in UK?!
Sometimes I have the feeling that Tamaskan was made ALSO as a way to hide wolfblooded animals from specific rules that had put "wolfdogs" in "dangerous dog list".

Yes, Paula, I´ve the same feeling. Wolfdogs were banned in the U.K. So it seems that they mixed a bit and called their "wolf-a-like dogs without any wolfblood" Utonagan - a name without any advertising effect. After a little tour to Finland a new name was created: Tamaskan. Sounds better - grin.

Quote:

I really dont see any sense in the existence of this so-to-say "breed" .

If I understand Puma correctly I should answer with a Liza Minnelli-song

wolfin · 04-11-2012, 03:13

from my info

price for this or others mix are and biger like have pure CSV with FCI pedigree

and why you think not are breeder who thake away puppy free. I know a few breeders, I self thake away for very good owners few puppy free too

but not believe in free tamaskans from this litter

or with price include vactination and pet pasport

Rona · 31-10-2012, 15:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ligerwolve2

Perhaps you dont realise how common this is? New breeds are created all the time.

My students sometimes claim that there is nothing wrong in plagiarism, because others do it. Sorry, but such arguments do not appeal to me.

Personally I think that honest people should obey the rules of organisations and institutions, especially of those they volountarily belong to, whether this applies to dog breeding, or any other field.

I'm surprised, you have another opinion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ligerwolve2

By insulting another breed?

Who insulted which breed?

I have nothing against any breed, nor against mixes or mongrels, only against people who thoughtlessly produce them without considering the far effects of their deeds

.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ligerwolve2

Or by sharing some of your wisdom?

This is exactly what I did.

EOT

avgrunn · 31-10-2012, 18:40

The news about mixing csv with a tamaskan are just so sad and dissapointing

31-10-2012, 14:45	#3
wolfin Moderator Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Where the wolf lives Posts: 6,095	only tamaskan have falsh hystory ( wolf like dog without wolf blood, but they have sarlos, csv, american wolf mix and who know moore) no have any breeding plan ( only a couple people producing theys dog) any line, any breeding program. Sorry maybe you not like this, but I see this when a few hours sit and read all data basa in tamaskan web page. nice fairytalle, but not very believe in good results. and yes I agree with Rona 10000%. __________________

02-11-2012, 19:04	#7
yukidomari Moderator Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Los Angeles CA Posts: 847	anyway, pointing to 'Jennie' or whomever as Blustag/Blufawn as the source of the inaccuracies/outright lies in the history of these dogs is a convenient 'fall guy', for sure, for the newly-chaired 'TDR', since several members repeated her same claims often enough. For example, why now does the 'TDR' admit that Oskari was indeed used? What changed? Has there been conclusive DNA evidence to refute the previous position? Oskari (Oxbow Leva Neve) has long since passed away, but for many years there was already word that he was the sire of several of the dogs imported from Finland. And about temperament - the CzW temperament has long been criticized by this group. And now several claim they know the progeny of Oskari and other CzW mixes with temperaments they like, so according to this, not a reason not to cross them. My question - why breed something and hope you DON'T get the associated temperament? Why not breed FOR something you want instead? And lastly, with the admitted inclusion of wolf's blood, what's the difference between this group of dogs and Saarloos? __________________ "Learn to do well; seek judgment." www.greyfarer.com/

03-11-2012, 13:38	#8
Czertice Rakša Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Praha Posts: 292	From what I understand, they are trying to create a breed that looks like a wolf, but has the temperament of labrador. A dog for all the people who love wolves, but are not prepared to deal with one in their own house. A dog for all those unhappy/uninformed people who obtain a real wolfdog only to find he is NOT a poodle. Right now they are at the stage of a wide range of crosses of saarloos, csw, husky, american wolfdog, malamute and whatnot. The temperaments differ accordingly. Those dogs are inbred already, there is no other option than outcrossing or letting yet another wolf-lookalike experiment fail. There are CSWs mixed in northern sledding breeds already, but I don't see CSW breeders fainting in horror at the impurity of such mixing. Why? Because no one puts up notices of such matings on internet. Seeing how many such experiments of creating a wolfy dog already happened, we should be glad that there is one underway which is open about the founding animals and shares information with the public. If they succeed in their goal, i suppose there won't be as many people willing to cross CSWs to create the mythical wolfdog without the wolf. __________________

04-11-2012, 03:13	#11
wolfin Moderator Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Where the wolf lives Posts: 6,095	from my info price for this or others mix are and biger like have pure CSV with FCI pedigree and why you think not are breeder who thake away puppy free. I know a few breeders, I self thake away for very good owners few puppy free too but not believe in free tamaskans from this litter or with price include vactination and pet pasport __________________

31-10-2012, 18:40	#13
avgrunn Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Trójmiasto Posts: 1,756	The news about mixing csv with a tamaskan are just so sad and dissapointing __________________ Ja & Urciowaty

31-10-2012, 14:12	#1
Ligerwolve2 Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 57	So what your saying is any breed that wasnt created by someone who is a scientist should not exist? Im not saying that these things shouldnt be entered with extreme care. I think there is a huge amount of work that should be done before mating etc. Perhaps you dont realise how common this is? New breeds are created all the time. I would rather have imput into what is happening, help guide the individual to the best options rather than see them sneak behind my back and use the worst combination and then quit half way through and leave a trail of cross breeds. Secondly you realise that CzWs while being a fantastic example of how to go about creating a breed is still seen as "new" and more of a fad and designer dog by some in the dog community. That others think CzW breeders are "amateur". I bet people just love hearing that. Bet it makes light of all the hard work that has gone into this wonderful breed. Im sure its quite far from the truth. Untill I hear from this person in question myself I would not go around labelling them as anything. Again I would rather steer them in the right direction which you wont get the chance to do if you come across as aggressive. They may lose registry to start with but would they not then later be registered as a foundation bitch/dog? One more time I think you will not stop this happening. All breeds see it. The question is how will you as a community handle this? By insulting another breed? By throwing a tantrum? Or by sharing some of your wisdom? Whether you like the breed or not they are trying to create it and from what I understand they have used CzWs before.

31-10-2012, 14:14	#2
Ligerwolve2 Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 57	Also I think you are wrong that no early hybrids made their way into private hands, but I cant prove it at this time.

03-11-2012, 13:49	#9
Puma Ottokar lovers Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Amsterdam Posts: 271	First of all, it has not been 'open', the breeder didnot inform the NVTW, the Dutch Czechsolovakian Wolfdog association, at which the breeder is registered. So 'open' is not that open. Second, being 'open' doesn't mean being right, is it? A criminal act in public, is still a criminal act, just to put it in perspective. To me this is not so mich about the intentions of the Tamaskan side, but all about the intentions of the CSW breeder. And her intentions are purely commercial: making money.

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