DM Testresults

[nanouk]

1) people always forget that "affected" dogs not always get ill - by many the illness will never "show up"

I have been told this many times, also with regards to Saarloos.. With the many dogs that will never show the illness, can you name me 1, just one 'affected' TWD age 10 or older that doesn't show signs?
I hope i assume correctly that with twd like with the SWD 10 is not "old" yet.

[massimo]

Originally Posted by nanouk

I have been told this many times, also with regards to Saarloos.. With the many dogs that will never show the illness, can you name me 1, just one 'affected' TWD age 10 or older that doesn't show signs?
I hope i assume correctly that with twd like with the SWD 10 is not "old" yet.

I may be wrong but I think by "affected" is meant "positive" and not "Ill"
A dog may be genetically "positive" DM/DM but not physically "Ill".
Of course if a dog is "Ill" then he will surely show signs.
But this is not true if a dog is "positive".
There are Positive dogs who are over 10 and not Ill.

[nanouk]

Originally Posted by massimo

There are Positive dogs who are over 10 and not Ill.

than could you please name me one of those..cynical as i am, i only hear of those being put to sleep, never the names of those that run care free!

[Rona]

I've been thinking about the DM tests and Dwarf tests, etc. and have some reflections. Mainly some of our "moralists" question the ethical condition of breeders who have yet not tested their dogs.... They are right: responsible breeders and rep owners should test their dogs against all possible diseases and health hazards. But there is one catch - money!
Each of these tests isn't extremely expensive (maybe excpet Dwarf), but adding up costs of several tests and multiplying it by the number of owned dogs makes quite a lump sum.

Paradoxically, the so-called "ethical breeders", who invest in good dog food, suitable conditions, medical care, dog shows, training, socialising etc. of their dogs are in a worse position, because making all the tests would mean less means for other 'dog expenses', not to mention family needs, kids education, holidays etc. It's obvious that hardly anyone has unlimited financial resources...
One of the solution could be to include the test costs in puppy prices. However, in the light of many litters available and the fact that good breeders do not sell CSV to anybody but try to select suitable homes (not necessarily the richest ones - see the discussion about puppy prices!), makes this solution not very practical.

So we have on the one hand puppy mills where the owners could probably afford doing the tests, but don't care very much about their dogs/pups health, and on the other - devoted breeders who sometimes would want to test their dogs, but jus can't afford and plan to do the tests gradually...

One may say: if somebody does not have money for testing his/her dogs he shouldn't breed at all. True. But if people stop breeding, many of them would have even less means for testing the dogs. It looks like a vicious circle. The tests have been available for very short time; as Mijke wrote in another thread - any change needs time, education, discussion of side effects, etc.

So maybe instead of blaming people for not testing their dogs, spreading rumours about the results, publishing results of other people's dogs, asking questions: "have you tested your dogs yet?", making owners/breeders feel guilty, etc. etc. we could just assume common goodwill. Lets take that caring, ethical breeders have tested their dogs, intend to test their dogs and will test their dogs at the earliest time feasible for them. I'm sure people will not object to publishing the test results if nobody will use them against them, their animals and their kennels.

By attacking others (even indirectly and with best intentions) nothing is achieved! People will only close themselves and hide the results, which is just the opposite from what is best for the breed.

And one more argument - there is a proverb "who lives in a glass house shouldn't throw stones". CSV teach humility and while looking at our dwarf free, DM clean, HD A and ED 0 dog we should remember we still don't know what else he might carry inside him

[Vaiva]

Originally Posted by Rona

I've been thinking about the DM tests and Dwarf tests, etc. and have some reflections.

As always - I can only agree with you.
Yes, these "once in life" tests are important, but when you count the costs of blood and urine tests to check if a female is really strong and healthy before she is even on heat, all the estrogen/progesteron tests (we know wolfdogs may need more than "normal" breeds ), traveling to male and other costs, one pays for every litter every time a female is mated... The puppies are golden So it is normal that people might want to save some money for additional tests, like DM, Dwarf or, still nobody speaks about how important they are (or aren't???), PRA and other eye tests

[Tatti]

For everybody who's saying a dog who is a carrier don't have to become ill.

Tell it please to Michael, his dog Falco Crying Wolf will be 9 years old in Jan 2011 and he's already ill for almost 1 year.

And who now says but that is an old dog cant be an owner of a TWD.

My own dog Hogan sky is an carrier of DM and I will make sure he's never bread with an untested bitch.

Gr
Tatiana

[Enid Black]

Hi Tatti,
Just for exactness' of terminology sake, a Carrier (DM/N) can't get ill. An Affected (DM/DM) as Falco (and his brother Forrest here in Italy ) sadly indeed can.
Anyway... the more dogs we test the more we'll know about the spreading of the illness...

[saschia]

Originally Posted by Rona

And one more argument - there is a proverb "who lives in a glass house shouldn't throw stones". CSV teach humility and while looking at our dwarf free, DM clean, HD A and ED 0 dog we should remember we still don't know what else he might carry inside him

Very wise words.

[nanouk]

Originally Posted by saschia

Very wise words.

I would say true, very wise and also farmerswisdom, and miss the point that is being made..specially we do not know what other diseases our dogs might carry i only see more reasons for testing and being open about those we do know about and being more carefull abou he combinations we make...

but getting back to my earlier question that is sadly still unanswered, can someone give me the name of just one dog with dm/dm that has reached the age of 10 without showing any symptons?

[elf]

In the document Understanding and Applying ThE Genetic Test for Degenerative Myelopathy there is an interesting stat:

"For the DM test dogs coming back "At-Risk" is the probability that the dog will later develop the disease known? Are there any statistics on frequency or number seen of affected dogs in the general Chesapeake population?

As we do not know the other factors that cause the clinical onset of DM, we cannot predict what percentage of dogs testing “At-Risk” (homozygous for the susceptibility gene) will develop the disease. Dr. Coates’ research of the Veterinary Medical Database (VMDB) showed that 13 of 1,567 (0.83%) Chesapeake Bay Retrievers presenting to veterinary teaching hospitals had clinical DM. Presently, 15% of Chesapeake Bay Retrievers test “At-Risk” for DM. It is obvious that the vast majority of “At-Risk” dogs will not develop DM."

[Rona]

Originally Posted by nanouk

but getting back to my earlier question that is sadly still unanswered, can someone give me the name of just one dog with dm/dm that has reached the age of 10 without showing any symptons?

I suspect that our late Tina might have developed DM at the age of 13,5. She died at 14, but during the last few months she had problems with walking and they seemed non-orthopeadic. We X-rayed her and her bones and joints were in suprisingly good condition! Two independent vets said the symptoms looked as if coming from the nervous system. We haven't tested her for DM obviously, but when reading about the disease I realized several symptoms seemed familiar. We carried Tina up and down stairs in the last month but she was able to walk weakly and slowly until her death.

At the age of 13 she was running and jumping, but apparently suffered when walking upstairs.

[Tuky]

Happy holidays to all! ... well I'm a couple of days of Wolfdog and I find this discussion focused on my litter

I knew it would not give so much to talk about a birth announcement litter's Kay

Only the English forum announced (other than Spanish) to where some of the friends knew of their development and because I was (and am) very excited about it

I will not round, Kay has not made the DM test, why? that did not know how to do them from Spain, and when I found out I had to do and mating.

DM test Kay?... of course, When? Kay is recovered when the puppies, before other tests are more important to me, but you can rest assured that it will be before her next litter. Honestly I did not worry because the "half-brothers " Kay, were free

And by Enor, then, what to say without a flutter? ... hehe

if you worry for the puppies, 3 of them have houses, they know how to act and rely on my decision. Still need a female without knowing where it will be their new home, be well informed as it enters Wolfdog advise to follow the news of breed. (a female will stay in the kennel )

anything else? ... I will not get into fights, but thought it necessary to respond.

There is a saying that says a fight is necessary for 2 people, (I do not want to fight)

[z Peronówki]

Originally Posted by nanouk

With the many dogs that will never show the illness, can you name me 1, just one 'affected' TWD age 10 or older that doesn't show signs?.

I could tell you the names of several DM/DM dogs which are over 10 years old (one is even 14 years old) and still walk good (compared to their age)... Unfortunately the owners do not agree...
What I can do - I will travel to visit some of them in May. I can try to take some videos of them (the videos will not show the heads but the movement)...

And it is no wonder - Wolfdogs are different in this case...
Just look - DM is not a NEW illness. It has been in the "blood" of your dogs since founding of the breed because it came from German Shepherds... The DM tests are avaible for a long time... Vets know this illness very well - many GSDs suffer from it...
Why for many years there was not even one case of person who wrote about such problems by his/her dog? Why nobody wrote that Wolfdogs can have DM?

The answer is simply: because even if there are pretty many CzWs which are "carriers" and "affected" only VERY small amount of DM/DM dogs show serious symptoms... In the 12 years I saw hundreds of Wolfdogs. But not even one which had such problems as Forrest.
Sure that DM appears by CzWs too - but it appears when the dogs are already old (8+). And the symtoms are not so good visible... It is why the illness was "hidden" for so many years: many people, even if they saw a DM/DM dog though (because of the age of the dogs) that they walk "different" because of their age... Nobody though it can be symtom of any other "illess" than the most known: old age....

Originally Posted by Tatti

For everybody who's saying a dog who is a carrier don't have to become ill.
Tell it please to Michael, his dog Falco Crying Wolf will be 9 years old in Jan 2011 and he's already ill for almost 1 year.

Falco is not CARRIER (N/DM). HE is AFFECTED dog (DM). Carriers do not get ill...

But here you forgot one thing - Falco is brother of Forrest (the dog from the video). Both are DM/DM, both get ill in the (pretty) early age and by both dogs the illness develop very fast...

It doesn't mean it apply for all other "affected" dogs... It means only that exactly by this "family" there must be something in the genes what "activate" the illness... And exactly all breeding dogs from this line must be tested.
It doesn't mean other dogs do not need to be tested. It means only that by the dogs with similar ancestors a DM test is a must...

[woland77]

Originally Posted by z Peronówki

I could tell you the names of several DM/DM dogs which are over 10 years old (one is even 14 years old) and still walk good (compared to their age)... Unfortunately the owners do not agree...
What I can do - I will travel to visit some of them in May. I can try to take some videos of them (the videos will not show the heads but the movement)...

And it is no wonder - Wolfdogs are different in this case...
Just look - DM is not a NEW illness. It has been in the "blood" of your dogs since founding of the breed because it came from German Shepherds... The DM tests are avaible for a long time... Vets know this illness very well - many GSDs suffer from it...
It is absolutely not true. The test for research purposes is available from 2008, to 2009 from commercial laboratories, the scientific articles with all the good practice was published in 2009. You can not talk about "long time"

the articles was send from Coates staff on December 2008,
The body to verify the validity of the content published in February 2009:

http://www.pnas.org/content/early/20...97106.abstract

http://www.pnas.org/content/early/20....full.pdf+html
Why for many years there was not even one case of person who wrote about such problems by his/her dog? Why nobody wrote that Wolfdogs can have DM?

The answer is simply: because even if there are pretty many CzWs which are "carriers" and "affected"

only VERY small amount of DM/DM dogs show serious symptoms...

Dr Gandini said the test is not in use long enough to do any kind of estimate on the results. There is no certainty that the dog DM / DM develops symptoms, but there is no certainty that there are dogs DM / DM can not get sick. There are some reported cases of old dogs DM/DM without symptoms (but the official scientific publications do not mention), which are being studied. The only certainty is scientifically accepted that all dogs with genetic testing for DM with symptoms according to the official diagnostic protocol, and that were affected after the autopsy, were all DM / DM. Any other implications among the test and the development of the disease is currently under study even in races more monitored.

In the 12 years I saw hundreds of Wolfdogs. But not even one which had such problems as Forrest.
Sure that DM appears by CzWs too - but it appears when the dogs are already old (8+). And the symtoms are not so good visible... It is why the illness was "hidden" for so many years: many people, even if they saw a DM/DM dog though (because of the age of the dogs) that they walk "different" because of their age... Nobody though it can be symtom of any other "illess" than the most known: old age....




Falco is not CARRIER (N/DM). HE is AFFECTED dog (DM). Carriers do not get ill...

But here you forgot one thing - Falco is brother of Forrest (the dog from the video). Both are DM/DM, both get ill in the (pretty) early age and by both dogs the illness develop very fast...

It doesn't mean it apply for all other "affected" dogs... It means only that exactly by this "family" there must be something in the genes what "activate" the illness... And exactly all breeding dogs from this line must be tested.
It doesn't mean other dogs do not need to be tested. It means only that by the dogs with similar ancestors a DM test is a must...

The fact that there is an agent for activating SOD1 is still a hypothesis under investigation, not a certainty. Talking to the SOD1 gene in a family is more active than others is not serious and scientific.

It 's more useful to consider that the probability of finding a recessive gene as homozygous (DM / DM) is directly proportional to the higher inbreeding coefficient.

[elf]

Originally Posted by z Peronówki
It doesn't mean it apply for all other "affected" dogs... It means only that exactly by this "family" there must be something in the genes what "activate" the illness..

This is very likely what's happening, this is the case for many many other diseases or gen traits, i.e. genetic regulatory networks expressivity pattern.

Originally Posted by z Peronówki
Because now we miss one VERY important thing... There are lines by CzWs which have SERIOUS problems to move properly already at the age of 2-4 YEARS... And some dogs from these lines have been tested with N/N. So for 100% they do not have DM... They are also HD-free...

My dog has one of these "new disease", she starts walking not properly at the age of 1.5, the scanner showed her disease is related to the central part of bones, this central part -spongy bone-, does not show the correct structure and have too much soft tissus (showed in the scanner as large black parts -some cm long- whereas regular tissus looks light grey). Vets are likely for a genetic causes, but know nothing more about it.

[Mikael]

Originally Posted by elf

My dog has one of these "new disease", she starts walking not properly at the age of 1.5, the scanner showed her disease is related to the central part of bones, this central part -spongy bone-, does not show the correct structure and have too much soft tissus (showed in the scanner as large black parts -some cm long- whereas regular tissus looks light grey). Vets are likely for a genetic causes, but know nothing more about it.

Very sorry about your dog, is it a CsV ? And how old is she now ?
Did it get worse whit age ?

Best regards / Mikael

[Mikael]

On the dogs today that are Affected and ill, can one see anyhing that has any similarities ??? Like high COI % or Line ???

And NO names please !

Very best regards / Mikael

[woland77]

Originally Posted by elf

This is very likely what's happening, this is the case for many many other diseases or gen traits, i.e. genetic regulatory networks expressivity pattern.

As plausible, there are several research groups are studying the thing that does not take any responsibility to make assumptions like that. Scientifically still speaking about a " Unkonow trigger" If i'm well informed, the DNA of both brothers are at one of these research bodies, leave to speculate where it is due. Speculating on these assumptions is the best ground where they sprout the witch-hunts.

[Shadowlands]

We are going to have our girl tested for DM soon - are there other tests we should consider at the same time (one trip to to the vet to take blood for sending to Laboklin is better than several). What is ED? Are there known eye problems PRA/PLL?

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

You need blood for DM and Dwarfism and please also to send for the databank in Bern.
ED is Ellbowdisplasia, that is an x-ray to take when you x-ray for HD.
There are more genetic eye diseases than PRA, normally the specialists (and it should be done by a specialist) check for all of them at once but this should be done in regular terms, we have to do it on a yearly basis in Germany.

Regards
Ina