CSV Mixes in the US

[GalomyOak]

Well, the day I was dreading has arrived.

Yesterday I received an email asking to use my males as stud dogs for "Aatu Tamaskans" . Of course I refused! I had always thought Tamaskans were completely free from wolf genetics...but I learned, I was wrong.
http://www.tamaskanbreeders.com/History_update.html

This "kennel" in the US contacted me for stud use:
http://www.conchurtamaskans.com/

And I found this pedigree linking back to her dogs:

http://www.the-no-wolf-tamaskan-fabl...PolarSpeed.pdf

Oskari is this dog: http://www.wolfdog.org/dbase/d/10973, and this line was bred from a kennel called "Polar Speed" in Finland.

I soon found these kennels as well, all breeding from the same lines:
http://www.takaritamaskans.com/
http://albatamaskans.webs.com/ourboys.htm
* This kennel now has puppies in 4 states in the US, as well as Wales, Austria and Germany - all are called "future breeders" on the TBA website.

The breeder told me in her next email that she had found other breeders (CSV, I assume) that had agreed to help her with their "breeds" goal to improve genetics by adding more Czechoslovakian Wolfdog blood. I don't know where this "help" comes from...but please, I beg whoever, if you are reading this - don't do this to the CSV in the US! It is too new here, it can cause so many problems for our breed in the future.

I don't think these Tamaskan breeders realize what a real wolfdog can be like...they are selling their dogs as the perfect, easy, loving family pet that isn't good for guarding because it gets along with everyone...

Sad regards,
Marcy

[tupacs2legs]

this is very sad and has been discussed alot on tamaskan forum/sites it reminds me alot of the northern inuit thing in england

http://tdsgbforum.forumup.com/about863-tdsgbforum.html

[GalomyOak]

Originally Posted by tupacs2legs

this is very sad and has been discussed alot on tamaskan forum/sites it reminds me alot of the northern inuit thing in england

http://tdsgbforum.forumup.com/about863-tdsgbforum.html

I just don't understand...okay, if you want a Tamaskan, you buy one....if you want a CSV, you buy that instead (after making sure either is really the best suited breed, to you, of course). Certainly from the US, it costs just as much to import either...But why the need to make mixes? This lady did at least say that she did thorough health checks on her dogs...but in looking at some of the other websites, there are cases of genetic epilepsy, strong cryptorchidism, Addison's disease already within this small gene pool...I didn't really get the impression this lady was even looking for healthy CSV lines...just whoever would agree to breed.

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

Hi Marcy,

it was just a question of time
And who believed the fairytale of the Tamaskan (behavior and origin) anyway...?

Michael

[Mikael]

People has bean asking me here in Sweden to, from another wolfdog (breed) and I know they have talk to Saarloos owners also...

I think it is very important to point out that this are mix breeders !
They have no experience on how to mix a new breed...

They think one new dog will help save there breed... They do not have a register nor club, they do not even know how many dogs they have in there own (breed), they do not have a breed plan and they do not really know how much wolfbood they already have in there (breed) today...

Ask them a question back, you get no answer or a very bad answer. Or they just get very very mad.

I’m for making new breeds, but I do not support mix breeding, I think there is a very very big difference... And any mixing whit wolf or wolfdogs will create many problems, problems that I think you must be a organisation to handle in a good way...

But no I will not mix my CsW to any other dog or dog-breed, not even a serious project

Very best regards / Mikael

[miran]

Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn

Hi Marcy,

it was just a question of time
And who believed the fairytale of the Tamaskan (behavior and origin) anyway...?

Michael

Don't make a mistake to confuse the Aatu tamaskan with the real Tamaskan.
Only TDR register Tamaskan are true tamaskans. All others a from breeders that mixed and the starter off the breed Tamaskan wants the name Tamaskan off them. Her name was also stolen and misused. If you really want to know more and the truth about it all just visit our forum:http://tdsgbforum.forumup.com/about3...dsgbforum.html
or the TDR site http://www.tamaskan-dog.com/index2.htm
Or the The Tamaskan Dog Society of Great Britain:http://www.tamaskan-dog.co.uk/
The TBA where you talk about: They are a shame for the breed tamaskan and we do not recognize their offspring as Tamaskans. If the breed is ready for any recognition then only the TBR registered Tamaskan will fall under that.

[*Satu]

more nice links...http://www.the-no-wolf-tamaskan-fable.com/

[miran]

Originally Posted by *Satu

more nice links...http://www.the-no-wolf-tamaskan-fable.com/

read all about this site and the peoples behind it here: http://tdsgbforum.forumup.com/viewto...rum=tdsgbforum

It is a shame that to sell there one not good checked on health issues off spring to make the real tamaskan so black.
If they want to start a new breed. That's okee but don't lie about the Tamaskan and use an own name!!!! All used dogs are DNA registered so if you really want to know the truth: DNA doesn't lie

And all this BS just started because Takari got a male with one testicle an had the advise not to breed whit him. So they have different opinions and there was fighting. Takari was out of TDR and started to make the TDR black. Shame shame shame. Do what you want but don't involve the real Tamaskan.

[Mikael]

Hmmmmm...

And how will we know which ones tells the troth ???
Is really all dogs DNA tested ??? If they are, that is very good work, but how can we se this info ???

Ps, post nr #5 is not about the Tamaskan dog. Ds

Best regards / Mikael

[tupacs2legs]

Originally Posted by Mikael

Hmmmmm...

And how will we know which ones tells the troth ???
Is really all dogs DNA tested ??? If they are, that is very good work, but how can we se this info ???

Ps, post nr #5 is not about the Tamaskan dog. Ds

Best regards / Mikael

i believe 'certain people' are refusing to dna test

[miran]

Originally Posted by tupacs2legs

i believe 'certain people' are refusing to dna test

DNA testing is now mandatory. All breeding dogs have to undergo DNA testing. Failure to DNA test will result in the produced litter not being registered until DNA testing has been completed. ( so there of spring can be sweet and beautiful(that's an other story) but they are NOT(yet) Tamaskan!) DNA testing is a safe, non-invasive cheek swab taken by yourself and sent to a special laboratory.
The benefits of DNA testing are numerous. One of our main reasons for starting this DNA testing scheme is to prove parentage. Provided that both parents have been DNA profiled, the parentage of all future puppies can be proved. This will cut down on the number of people breeding any mixture of dogs and claiming they are pure Tamaskan for monetary gain. We recommend puppy purchasers only buy from DNA tested parents. DNA profiling can also help in the future if any genetic disorder is found. We should be able to trace the problem, which will help us in eradicating the problem.
Our DNA testing is being undertaken by MMI Genomics.
'The Canine DNA Parentage Test is used to determine parents of dogs. Breeders and owners of dogs use this test to ensure accuracy of breeding records, confirm and guarantee pedigrees and protect breed integrity.'
The final profile is provided to you in an attractive certificate that proudly displays your dog’s unique genetic identity.
ALWAYS ask for proof of DNA profiling, if your breeder fails to provide this certificate chances are they are not pure, registered Tamaskan. DNA profiling can be done from the day of birth and some breeders may choose to have the whole litter DNA profiled although at the moment DNA testing is only mandatory for breeding dogs.

[solowolf]

Originally Posted by GalomyOak

Well, the day I was dreading has arrived.

Yesterday I received an email asking to use my males as stud dogs for "Aatu Tamaskans" . Of course I refused! I had always thought Tamaskans were completely free from wolf genetics...but I learned, I was wrong.
http://www.tamaskanbreeders.com/History_update.html

This "kennel" in the US contacted me for stud use:
http://www.conchurtamaskans.com/

And I found this pedigree linking back to her dogs:

http://www.the-no-wolf-tamaskan-fabl...PolarSpeed.pdf

Oskari is this dog: http://www.wolfdog.org/dbase/d/10973, and this line was bred from a kennel called "Polar Speed" in Finland.

I soon found these kennels as well, all breeding from the same lines:
http://www.takaritamaskans.com/
http://albatamaskans.webs.com/ourboys.htm
* This kennel now has puppies in 4 states in the US, as well as Wales, Austria and Germany - all are called "future breeders" on the TBA website.

The breeder told me in her next email that she had found other breeders (CSV, I assume) that had agreed to help her with their "breeds" goal to improve genetics by adding more Czechoslovakian Wolfdog blood. I don't know where this "help" comes from...but please, I beg whoever, if you are reading this - don't do this to the CSV in the US! It is too new here, it can cause so many problems for our breed in the future.

I don't think these Tamaskan breeders realize what a real wolfdog can be like...they are selling their dogs as the perfect, easy, loving family pet that isn't good for guarding because it gets along with everyone...

Sad regards,
Marcy

hi Marcy, it will happen and there is nothing you can do will stop it, money is the goal, my first litter in uk all new owners signed contract that they would never cross breed there CWS with any other breed of dog, they did and it would cost me fortune to take them all to court to get my dogs back as it is classed as civil mater, as for the Tamaskan, this is not a breed of dog, it is not recognised in any country or by any kennel club, the person who is reasponsable for this so called bred is from uk, and used to breed belgium shepherds, i refused to sell this person CWS many years ago in 2003, the dogs they call tamaskans are nothing but a mix of different breeds, just like the inuits, people who breed these dogs now say they have records of breedings and that they will become recognised breed with kennel club, so anyone reading this mail in uk who has a Tamaskan and has been told by the breeder it will be recognised by the k.c. please phone registration department and ask for Caroline Hallett, she will confirm they are not up for recognition, they have been breeding these dogs for years and still have not produced a type, so they are doing something very wrong, Bluestag took some of the cross bred dogs to finland and she lived there, then some dogs came back to the uk, and people where told they now had wolf content, but no one knows if they do, with only this persons word to say so, i would take it very lightly what she has said about wolf content, funny she came home to uk when the CWS had got some numbers up, then suddenly the Tamaskan re-appears but now with wolf content,, MONEY,,,,,to make things clear the inuit, british inuit, have been bred in uk for some 15 yrs according to there web sites, they still have no type and still can not become recognised breed, by the way the Utonagon was also by the same kennel Bluestag, when they died a death, then came the Tamaskan, it also died a death but then came back as the new tamaskan but now with wolf content, i have seen these dogs they are not wolfdogs, they do not act or have anything in common with true wolfdogs, they are normal dogs and act like them. but when you put wolfdog or wolf content in any advert people buy them, the web sites on the net now state the Tamaskans have wolf content, i wonder who is behind it all and who put the word out,,,,,,, it is all crap lies and deciet to make money from selling dogs. RONNIE WINDER UK.

[miran]

indeed the tamaskan is a new breed( well not an official breed) that will not go yet for recognition so any breeder that says they will be recognised by the k.c. is a liar!
We will not go for recognition yet because the tamaskan is not yet how we want it to be.(the global appearance is there but the fur is in some line too short) It is a breed started from different breeds(you can read that all on the links I gave) yes but they have no wolf content at all!!!!!!!
we call them the wolfdog without the wolf content!!just because the way they look
Make no mistake a real tamaskan is 100% dog.

Alba and takari are not real tamaskan breeders!!!

[miran]

Also must be known that another stole the blustag name and places falls adverts
The tamaskan has been without wolfcontent and will always be without

[draggar]

Originally Posted by solowolf

hi Marcy, it will happen and there is nothing you can do will stop it, money is the goal, my first litter in uk all new owners signed contract that they would never cross breed there CWS with any other breed of dog, they did and it would cost me fortune to take them all to court to get my dogs back as it is classed as civil mater,

QFT on the bold part. Some (unethical?) breeders only car about breeding what is popular and taking in as much cash as they can. We'll see more of this as the breed becomes popular. When we sold our puppies we had similar statements in our contracts. One went to a pet home - it was mandatory he was neutered when he was old enough (he also came with a limited registration so they couldn't show him). The co-own female won't be bred without our consultation (the owner wouldn't do that anyway) and the fully-owned female, while the owner does have the right to breed her how they feel, they will consult us.

But - be glad that it seems that most of the vlcak community has a high set of standards. People who do this will have a hard time falsifying the paperwork (like some other breed clubs).

We know someone who was "training" a Dutch shepherd for close to a year. What did he do? He bred her to one of his malinois and when the litter was born had a very well known trainer falsify paperwork so they could be registered as pure bred malinois. I won't mention any names.

I don't think we'll have this problem in this breed for a while.

[lupis]

Originally Posted by draggar

I don't think we'll have this problem in this breed for a while.

We have. In Italy we have dogs from Passo del Lupo who look exacly like Tamaskans... but in pedigree are CLC.

[miran]

Tamaskan is been breed for looks and behavior.
We all know the CWS behavior and that is not what we want in the Tamaskan. So yes there are breeds that look the same just take the Saarloos.....

I have all three. A saarloos , a CWS and a Tamaskan. I find it unethical to crossbreed this breeds.
It is the difference in behavior that we want in the Tamaskan and you can only reach that if you only use 100% dog. I love real wolfdogs like the CWS and the saarloos but there are peoples that can not handle the behavior and that's why there is the Tamaskan.

It is a big shame that breeders(not real tamaskan breeders) will use a story and try to really crossbreed them with CWS because they do not know what they create, just for the use of selling there litter better. They can not use the standard of a Tamaskan if they use another breed because the easy behavior of the dog will be gone. Just like any CWS,Saarloos and real Tamaskan owner is that where we all fighting against.
So please any CWS or Saarloos owner please please please never let one of your dogs been used for this unethical practise

[draggar]

Originally Posted by miran

Tamaskan is been breed for looks and behavior.
We all know the CWS behavior and that is not what we want in the Tamaskan. So yes there are breeds that look the same just take the Saarloos.....

Every breed has it's reason and purpose and IMO the only acceptable reason to cross breed (any breed) is to create a new breed that fills a gap in the dog world. Breeding cross-breeds for money or just ease IMO is unethical to begin with. "They make good pets" is not a good reason.

Any puppies sold during the "transition" period (while the new breed is being engineered (for the lack of a better term) should all be spayed / neutered when they reach the correct age.

It is a big shame that breeders(not real tamaskan breeders) will use a story and try to really crossbreed them with CWS because they do not know what they create, just for the use of selling there litter better. They can not use the standard of a Tamaskan if they use another breed because the easy behavior of the dog will be gone. Just like any CWS,Saarloos and real Tamaskan owner is that where we all fighting against.
So please any CWS or Saarloos owner please please please never let one of your dogs been used for this unethical practise

No dog (of any breed) should be used for unethical breeding. This is a major issue here in the USA - too many unethical breeders breeding and selling the pups too young (I just saw on another forum someone's family got a puppy - the "last one" from the litter, at 5 weeks - yes, I went off on them), don't require neuter / spay so then these new pet owners can breed "pet" dogs thus contributing to an exploding pet overpopulation.

Luckily, the vlcak breed is still very new in the USA so it can be monitored who gets the puppies and make sure people with the dogs' and breed's best interests in mind as opposed to their own agenda but sadly there WILL be a time when this can no longer be monitored. As the breed becomes more popular (and I know there is a small demand for wolf-hybrids here) more unethical breeders will pop up, just look at how damaged the German shepherd breed is here.

[miran]

Any puppies sold during the "transition" period (while the new breed is being engineered (for the lack of a better term) should all be spayed / neutered when they reach the correct age.

Well not any but yes most. Only not the ones you want to use for using your word the engineering for the breed.

Every breed has it's reason and purpose and IMO the only acceptable reason to cross breed (any breed) is to create a new breed that fills a gap in the dog world. Breeding cross-breeds for money or just ease IMO is unethical to begin with. "They make good pets" is not a good reason.

Besides good pets the breed was original started for a better sled-dog.
I find a pup going to his new home with 5 weeks way to early(at the earliest point I would say 8 weeks and no sooner). And if only used for house-dog I agree with you that it is better that they all be spayed / neutered.

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

As spaying/neutering can have very negative side effects I find this point of view very strange. It means you amputate healthy organs instead of looking for responsible owners.

Ina