Ambra Vlci nadeje - wolfdog for 15,000.00 Euro?

[Gonzo]

Top breeder, top dog, top PRICE

I agree with these English lines Pavel, but on the other hand something is
bothering me.
Under the ""Information about adult CzWs looking for new homes:"" there is a
dog being offered with a price of 15000 euro.
The header seems to be misleading in this case.

Quite sick and killing for the breed if you ask me. Strictly commercial.
I don't understand you actually want this on your website. To be honest:
you can buy a new car for that kind of money... Or is there a automobile
included??
Most horses are much cheaper.

Even if it is a top dog or top breeder,, not one dog is worth such an amount
of money.

I am curious about people's opinion as well as yours.

Jos Bakker

[Pavel]

Hi Jos,

I agree with these English lines Pavel, but on the other hand something is
bothering me.

Thank you. )

Under the ""Information about adult CzWs looking for new homes:"" there is a
dog being offered with a price of 15000 euro.
The header seems to be misleading in this case.
I am curious about people's opinion as well as yours.

I was very surprised too with this offer (must say , that very disgusted with it
too), but we are openly for every offers, if is about CsW. Every breeder and
owner make the image about self. If I will breeding for money only and I will
present it, then is it good for other, because they will know who I am. I think,
that openly informations about all breeders and owners make a "clear air" and
everybody can choice, from which breeder want a puppy. Is better so, then when
we will present only the best informations and only the positive news.

I hope, that you understand my opinion

Pavel

[Philippe]

Under the ""Information about adult CzWs looking for new homes:"" there is a dog being offered with a price of 15000 euro.

Hope this is a mistake, and need to be read as 1500 Euros (a bit surprising
too...)!!!

Philippe

[Parker]

I don't know the equivalent value in Euros but I know for a fact that people pay as much as $125,000 US for Schutzhund working caliber GSDs imported into the US from Germany. You could buy several Skodas for that kind of money, right Pavel.

[Gonzo]

My goodness, i'm in the wrong bussines. I should be having fun training
dogs instead of working those stupid computers hey.
15,000.00 Euro = 13,243.17 United States Dollars
It's not said that this advert is the ideal working dog though.


The Skoda's have been improved over the last couple of years by the way.

greetings,
Jos

[Pavel]

Hope this is a mistake, and need to be read as 1500 Euros (a bit surprising too...)!!!

May reaction was the same. I check, if is there maybe one zero more ). But I
found, that its true so. So really, correct price is 15.000 EUR (fifteen thousand
euro) (.

Pavel

[Minna]

Hi,

We would never pay 1 500 Euros for a dog - at once! When we purchased our dogs we
paid the standard price. However, we have to admit that owning these CsVs has cost us
much more. Say, we needed to buy an own house, big car box, good garden fence,
kennel; and the dogs have caused some damage too. You may be amused to hear about
things they have destroyed: many kind of cables, one mobile phone, 3 car safety
belts, two oriental carpets, curtains, wooden door frames, wooden balcony fence, one
metal cup board, several clothes, different kind of plants, one apple tree and
several other items. And of cause there are vet bills, training costs and all these
normal things every dog owner must pay. So, it hasn't been totally inexpensive hobby
to keep these dogs, but extremely interesting and rewarding one. We love the breed,
they are so intelligent: our dogs can open every door (the male even with a key if it
is in the hole - what a genius!) and window in our house, that's why we needed to buy
the kennel where they can be while alone at home. Further we have to add, that since
they have been in the kennel while alone, no damage has been done.

Minna and Risto

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

Hello Pavel,
when I first saw the price of this dog I was shocked and thougt that might be a
mistake, but since you investigated it was obiously not. Then looking at the
breeder (Arimminium kennel)in Italy and this mentioned dog, things got much
clearer for me. According to the data on the website this dog was born on the
20th of dezember 1998, her first litter is dated on the 23rd of dezember the
following year (first mating with 10 months!). The next litter was born on the
29th of november 2000, her last litter on the 4th of oktober 2001 (both litters
not even a year later!). That makes all in all 28 puppies in not even two years
from a bitch that is just 3 years old now!!! If I read the database correctly
this breeder obviously squeezed the poor dog out for more ore less monetary
reasons. Now this bitch is "through" and the breeder wants to make as much profit
as possible with her. Poor dog!Now everybody can build his own opinion about
this certain case and "breeder".I hope this is only a single case in Italy,
because I already wondered about the numerous "migration" of even adult wolfdogs
to that country.

Regards,
Michael Eichhorn

[Pavel]

Hi Minna,

We would never pay 1 500 Euros for a dog - at once!

You are optimist ). Whats you mean is sometimes the export prices for CsW from e.g.
Italy ? )

When we purchased our dogs we paid the standard price.

The mostly problem is, that lot of breeders sold the puppies with help of third person.
And it make the price logically higher. I must say, that I would never buy a puppy from
somebody else, then from his breeder directly.

You may be amused to hear about things they have destroyed: many kind of cables, one
mobile phone, 3 car safety belts, two oriental carpets, curtains, wooden door frames,
wooden balcony fence, one metal cup board, several clothes, different kind of plants,
one apple tree and several other items.

I see, that you have a really "destroyer" ). Plants and tree I know (because peeing
there and Hoky once try to pick a plums from tree and half destroy him too ) ), but the
other things I havent experience. I must say, that I have a luck, that my dogs dont
interesting abou destroying carpets or clothes.

We love the breed, they are so intelligent: our dogs can open every door (the male even
with a key if it is in the hole - what a genius!) and window in our house,

Great, clever dog ). Our puppy (Amarok) can open a door from kennel, which have 2
special safety locks (one is bayonet joint system and this lock is locket by a special
pin). Smply say, nothing is too much complicated for our dogs ).


Have a nice day
Pavel

PS : Minna, only privat question. Did you just check HD by your dog ? If yes, whats a
result ? You can write me it directly on my email. Thank.

[Pavel]

Hi Michael,

Then looking at the breeder (Arimminium kennel) in Italy and this mentioned dog,
things got much clearer for me. According to the data on the website this dog was
born on the 20th of dezember 1998, her first litter is dated on the 23rd of
dezember the following year (first mating with 10 months!). The next litter was
born on the 29th of november 2000, her last litter on the 4th of oktober 2001 (both
litters not even a year later!). That makes all in all 28 puppies in not even two
years from a bitch that is just 3 years old now!!! If I read the database correctly
this breeder obviously squeezed the poor dog out for more ore less monetary
reasons.

I can say only, that our database is correct. For other things only "no comment" )
(I hope you understand, why I cant comment like a webmaster)..

Now this bitch is "through" and the breeder wants to make as much profit as
possible with her. Poor dog!Now everybody can build his own opinion about this
certain case and "breeder".I hope this is only a single case in Italy, because I
already wondered about the numerous "migration" of even adult wolfdogs to that
country.

Its me very sorry, but I must say, that isnt a single case in Italy (see our
database).

But all this problem can be more or less reduce, if the club function really so, how
is normally. And we are again by the basic thema ).

Pavel

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

Dear Pavel,
I absolutely agree with you and as you already said we see a lot of wrong
judgement in Germany because german judges sometimes seem to think a CSW should
look and move like a german shepherd. At the moment we are working a lot in our
IG, as you know, to get to a better state in Germany. I hope the Czech and
Slowakian Club will help us with that as they did a great lot before. The VDH in
Germany wants a Charakter test in all breeding dogs and we are all together
working on it so I think in a few years things will be a lot better at least with
the VDH dogs.
If you need any arguments against "top breeding" in its negative results you only
have to have a closer look at the sarloos wolfdog who is in its origin very
likely to the csw. The sarloos has extremly high problems with imbreeding know
because they got PRA in their breed and because it isn´t a dominant gene they
didn´t realise it in time.According to Claudia they now seem to have two
different types of PRA one of them goes together with a Smallbrain-Degeneration
(I hope this is the right english translation). When the did some genetic
research on them some years ago the scientist asked them if they had divided the
blood sample of only one dog because he never before saw such a small genetic
base. I don´t know how they will solve this very bad problem without crossing
them with another breed what isn´t allowed by breeding regulation.

Regards Ina

[Philippe]

Hi, all,

Sorry, but I must dream, I can't believe the real price is 15.000 Euros...!!!! I
heard a story about a canadian Siberian Husky 'champion' (of paper) sold in Japan,
we have some example of special crazy breeders here in France, but they are all
ridiculous compare to that guy! You can't justify that price for a dog (even if all
my dogs are priceless to my eyes....)

Philippe

[mariagroot]

Hi all,
the only way to 'justify' this price is breeding with the poor bitch.
8-10 puppies each year to be sold at 1000-1500 EURO each. Since she is only
4, you can "use her for at least 4 more years.
This makes me sick,
Maria

[Pavel]

That's why some people don't follow the rules,when you sometimes come to shows,you
need the book to see what's the SWH and the CSW. I don't mean that it is necessary
to cross with another breed.

Ina and Christa touch a very sensitive thema - crossing between CsW and Saarloos. I
must say, that we have just some years a signals, that somebody cross this two breeds.
According FCI regulations have a rights to do it only a club in country of origin of
breed (CZ or SK) or club in country which is for race responsible (SK), but only under
very strictly control of national kynological union and the crossing must have a
detail plan, whats we want reach for target. And in first row, the hybrids can be
using by normally breed first after 4 generations and only if shows absolutely typical
signs of race (incl. character, of course). From my very egoistic expedience (sorry,
Saarloos people ) ) is doesnt matter, if the hybrids (means crosses betwen races)
are declared like a Saarloos, but last 3 years we can see on shows a hybrids, declare
like CsW and its just my interest. The most tragically fact is, that this hybrids were
just more, then 3-5 times used in CsW breed. I must say, that not in CZ, SK,
Switzerland and Italy, by other countries we are not sure. We have a suspicion to one
CsW breeder, but without DNA tests is unpossible to say it 100% (to this breeder was
in past just offered, that making the DNA tests, but breeder has definitely refuse
it).
I spoke today with some my friends and we decided, that we try to collect some
pictures of normally Saarloos, normaly CsW and some this hybrids and write a short
article with pictures there. Of course we dont say the names of dogs, but everybody
can make self the imagine.
How you can found this hybrids, declared like CsW ? Very typicaly signs are just black
mouth without mask (in CsW breed by adult dogs is just missing mask very seldom), wide
sitting ears and the basic sign is very weak body constitucion. By males is often big
head and very slim body. Am not bilog or CsW judge, so that maybe the specialists here
can found other signs. But if you have a normally CsW by this hybrid, then is on first
sight clear who is who.
For the "old" Csw people I dont must tell the name, we all know the breeder and for
others I recommended to visit some show or meeting in Germany, Holland, Belgium,
France or Switzerland, where are this hybrids very often by show.

It was a one of most sad thema in Csw conference yet for me

Pavel

[Philippe]

Hi, Maria and all,

Beurk... nobody can evaluate a dog this way!!! I can't understand co-owners
of a dog (please don't try to convert me to such a sad idea...), I can't
provide a dog to people I don't feel very well (the main reason 4 yearling are
still at home...), I think we can't give any 'echo' to such breeders!

Philippe

[z Peronówki]

You are optimist ). Whats you mean is sometimes the export prices for
CsW from e.g. Italy ? )
Pavel

1500 EUR for an aduld dog (show quality) is not so much. If it's a dog
admited for breeding - it's really cheap.

I'm not a fan of buying or trading in adult dogs - I'm just only born with
economics

Greetings,
Margo

[Margo]

Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn

Then looking at the breeder (Arimminium kennel) in Italy and this mentioned dog, things got much clearer for me.

It is old story, so first I want to say we are not talking about "Arimminium" anymore. It seems to be one of the bests (if not the best one) kennel in Italy now

But I want to speak about something else:

Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn

According to the data on the website this dog was born on the 20th of dezember 1998, her first litter is dated on the 23rd of dezember the following year (first mating with 10 months!). [..] I hope this is only a single case in Italy, because I already wondered about the numerous "migration" of even adult wolfdogs to that country.

I already checked the data and it is not the only single case. The are other such litters.
Now my question: anybody knows if there are any rules
for breeders in Italy? I already saw males and females having first matings with 10 months. Bitches having puppies twice a year (every time they go in heat). Is it alowed there?