Killing a stereotype.

[draggar]

My wife noticed that someone tried to register their "Czechoslovakian wolfdog" with USA (United Schutzhund clubs of America) but they denied their aplication stating that they consider wolf hybrids a dangerous breed and would not allow them in USA.

I'm thinking when the breed CsV - but the same can go for the Saarloos and the Lupo Italiano) starts to become more popular that we'll see more and moreof this and even them thrown in with "wolf-hybrid", "dangerous dog" legislation.

Educating people won't be easy - generally people are very stubborn in their beliefs but I'm thinking of one thing that could easily sway public opinion with the breed. People won't care that 90% of the lines are from German shepherds nor will they care that spitz breeds are far more wolfy in temperament than vlcaks are (the wolf is in there for the physical build and stamina - the pack mentality, intelligence, trainability, etc.. are from the GSD side).

Don't call them wolfdogs (honestly, that just screams hybrid to most people - despire "wolfhounds" are perfectly acceptable). Stick with the names, Vlcak, Saarloos, and Lupo Italiano. I seriously think the person mentioned above would have been accepted if they called it a Czechoslovakian Vlcak or just a Vlcak.

Thoughts on this (mainly for people in the US since the breed is still primarily unkown here).

[yukidomari]

Generally people are silly. People will believe that a husky is a 'wolf hybrid' if you throw out some insane nonsense like "she's got 5% wolf blood" and sound technical about it.. and it's totally made up. I don't think most people even really know what a wolf or a fox looks like - otherwise, it's really weird that people say a friend's Shiba is a "fox" and that our Lilith is a "wolf"..

I honestly don't even think that the Vlcak looks much like a wolf either, the head (the stop and some other things) itself and the ears give it all away.

But back to your topic, I prefer to call the dogs Vlcaks too. When I talk to people who don't know anything about CSVs I stick with Vlcaks. "Wolfdog" is a generalized term here in the states and 99% of the time it's people who are either actually illegally breeding wolves to dogs, or they have some husky mixes that they're marketing as "wolf" dogs. Unfortunately for Vlcaks, that's what they're going to be associated with when the word 'wolfdog' is mentioned and in both cases it's not a good ethical place to be.

'Wolfhound' like "foxhound" means that the dog hunted wolves, which apparently wolfhounds did so well that they went extinct in that area..

I think it'll be exceedingly hard to get a name like 'wolfdog' to not be associated with, well, wolf hybrids. That's like naming a breed 'mutt dog' and then telling people 'no, but it's really not a mix.' .. Just my two cents.

[draggar]

Originally Posted by yukidomari

Generally people are silly. People will believe that a husky is a 'wolf hybrid' if you throw out some insane nonsense like "she's got 5% wolf blood" and sound technical about it.. and it's totally made up. I don't think most people even really know what a wolf or a fox looks like - otherwise, it's really weird that people say a friend's Shiba is a "fox" and that our Lilith is a "wolf"..

Funny you should mention that - we had a Finnish Spitz before and most people thought she was a fox - and the funny thing is that most were acceptable of that!

Then they get really wierd and sometimes ask if she's some fox-dog hybrid (I didn't even know those two species were genetically comaptible!). Of course some of these peope are the same people who think our malinois are coyotes or coyote mixes.

[Mikael]

It is a Wolfdog but not a Hybrid, it is a dogbreed but not just a dog

BTW, only UK and FCI use the name Wolfdog on the Standard, AKC use Vlcak just like Sweden and Finland. And as I understand CZ use "Vlčáka" and SL use "Vlčiak" which means Wolfdog

Best regards / Mikael

[GalomyOak]

It's the reason I asked for the name change, originally, with the AKC. The biggest thing in tackling laws is getting a definition of what a "wolfdog" is. The American Humane Society defines them as anything after F5, any dog that would be imported to the US today would very likely be F7+. Verbally representing a dog as a wolf mix could get you in trouble in some places, so I never do, unless I know it is a person I trust. "Wolf Hybrid" has been beaten down (since the dogs are not "technically" hybrids) to become synonymous with wolfdog. Good publicity, and very careful communication will be key to the slow and steady progression of the breed, the fact that the AKC recognizes them as a dog breed period, is an advantage. Negative publicity is what really scares me - one child getting bitten, or animal getting attacked here and making it to the news - and it will be a dark day for our breed in the US...

[soniakanavle]

Well, but the breed IS a wolf/dog cross.....

Which doesn't mean it's dangerous of course, but I don't think trying to cover up the fact isn't the best idea, then inexperienced people will end up buying them thinking it'll act just like a GSD or another normal dog then end up with a crazy wild animal in their home when they don't know how to train it right. [I used to work at the SPCA and see lots of wolf hybrids get abandoned cause people didn't know what to expect and they would usually euthanize them because they couldn't adopt them out again. So sad. ]

And anyway, 'Vlcak' just means 'Wolfdog' in Czech, so any Czech-Americans will still know what they truly are.

I'm going with what Marcy says, good publicity and the right people involved in the breed to get them off to a good start in the USA, no matter what their name is. I know it'll be hard cause most stupid Americans are afraid of wolves, but everyone who meets my CsV are very interested in the breed and their history and want to pet him and take photos of him so I think they have a good future over here in this country. [I hope!!]

I'm proud of his heritage and isn't that why we all fell in love with them cause of the wolf in them??

Funny story actually, German Shepherds are on the 'Breed ban list' here in Portland OR, [for some stupid reason] so I had a way harder time finding a place to rent with my GSD than my 'Czech Wolfdog' lol.

[yukidomari]

All dogs are technically wolf hybrids down to the littlest Chihuahua or the biggest Mastiff. They just lost count of what generation it is. I personally don't think it does the breed any favors by emphasizing it, though IMHO.

PERSONALLY speaking I liked the aesthetic side of the breed initially.. who wouldn't? But I don't care if they have had wolf in them recently or not.. I chose them over other dogs solely because I liked their temperament too and the whole package, regardless of their history.

Sonia, if you worked in the SPCA, you would know how many sibes and sibe mixes are in the nation's shelter every day.. there is no dog breed that is 'normal'... all breeds have their specific needs, drives, wants, and special care. That includes the most 'family friendly' or 'first timer' dogs here in the states like Golden Retrievers (which besides in the states are seen as a very field-bred, drivey breed). Go on petfinder and see how many people fail to even care for America's most popular breed..

Inexperienced people will buy the dogs they think are cool regardless of the name.. Sibes, for ex. again, have the misfortune of being very attractive, handsome, 'wolfy' (prick ears, double coat, roughly reminiscent colors) dogs. And they are cursed with having not the easiest temperaments to live with for the average person. For even the slightly practiced eye, of course we can tell which dog is a sibe or a malamute or an alaskan, and which is a CSV. But to the regular person they're all roughly the same.. it would break my heart to see CSVs as frequently as I see sibes in the shelters and rescues and how many people, wrong people, would like to have a CSV because it's a 'hardcore' WOLFDOG! or a 'cool' dog to have.

Perhaps it's my area that makes it all the more relevant, but here every week there is some news of a fighting ring broken up, and regularly you see exactly the wrong type of people to own any type of dog, owning the latest 'it' dog for the tough guy image. In the 70s it was the Dobe, now it's the Pittie (or pit 'type'), and here and then some guys who've managed to get their hands on some Cane Corsos. Sad. Sad all around.

Now I've lost my point and am rambling a bit.. part of the reason I like the lesser known breeds is exactly that - they are lesser known, at least around here, and it hurts my feelings less because I don't see them exploited or ill-taken care of.

I wish and hope with all my heart that the CSV in the future will be one of those oddities of recognized dog breeds that are oddly not that popular, like Beaucerons or Keeshonds. It would be sad if they ended up where tons of other handsome breeds are, though, like GSDs, Goldens, Sibes and Malamutes.

[soniakanavle]

Originally Posted by yukidomari

All dogs are technically wolf hybrids down to the littlest Chihuahua or the biggest Mastiff. They just lost count of what generation it is. I personally don't think it does the breed any favors by emphasizing it, though IMHO.

Come on, it's a bit ridiculous to compare the CsV with a Chihuahua....
[And randomly, the AKC says that the Chihuahua is descended form the Fennec Fox!! Lol!!! ]
Czech Vlcak had pure wolf introduced as late as the 1970's, and into a wolf/GSD cross so I think 40 years is a bit closer to the temperment of a real wolf rather than the hundreds [or thousands] of years with most breeds of dogs. Even 'wolfy' acting Siberians are years and years away from any wolf, though I don't deny they're hard to handle, a husky was my first dog and I learned a lot about what I know about dogs from her and it's sad to see them go into the wrong hands as well.
At the SPCA at least 90% of the dogs were APBT/pitty mixes because the wrong people get the breed, which can be one of the sweetest dogs ever, to use for fighting, to have a mean guard dog or cause they think they're 'cool'. [And I understand the severe threat of this happening to the CsV if not introduced to the US in the right way.]

My only point is, I don't think the best route to good PR is just to cover up the fact that they are a wolf/dog [not just a descendant of wolves like most breeds of dog.] But to teach the public that they can be a trustworthy family pet/working dog by good examples, CGC/other titles, knowledgeable people representing the breed etc.

[draggar]

Originally Posted by GalomyOak

IVerbally representing a dog as a wolf mix could get you in trouble in some places, so I never do, unless I know it is a person I trust. "Wolf Hybrid" has been beaten down (since the dogs are not "technically" hybrids) to become synonymous with wolfdog. Good publicity, and very careful communication will be key to the slow and steady progression of the breed, the fact that the AKC recognizes them as a dog breed period, is an advantage. Negative publicity is what really scares me - one child getting bitten, or animal getting attacked here and making it to the news - and it will be a dark day for our breed in the US...

I try my hardest to call her a vlcak and then if people ask about the breed, I get into the history.

Originally Posted by soniakanavle

Well, but the breed IS a wolf/dog cross.....

Which doesn't mean it's dangerous of course, but I don't think trying to cover up the fact isn't the best idea, then inexperienced people will end up buying them thinking it'll act just like a GSD or another normal dog then end up with a crazy wild animal in their home when they don't know how to train it right. [I used to work at the SPCA and see lots of wolf hybrids get abandoned cause people didn't know what to expect and they would usually euthanize them because they couldn't adopt them out again. So sad. ]

And anyway, 'Vlcak' just means 'Wolfdog' in Czech, so any Czech-Americans will still know what they truly are.

I'm sure most Czech-Americans or Slovak-Americans will also know about the breed, in some way. I'm not saying hide the truth, I'm saying tell people what they are - vlcak. That doesn't matter if it means wolfdog in the language or not. Many dogs have names in other languages that people don't know the name from it (heck, most don't even know what the names mean!).

As for people getting the wrong dog - that will happen with any breed. People see schutzhund and police videos thinking they want a dog like that (working like GSD or Belgian) and don't realize it takes a hell of a lot of work to get a dog like that *and* constant training and supervision. I've seen people who aren't even suited for a newfie or a lab want (and sometimes get) a working line shepherd.

Funny story actually, German Shepherds are on the 'Breed ban list' here in Portland OR, [for some stupid reason] so I had a way harder time finding a place to rent with my GSD than my 'Czech Wolfdog' lol.

Belgian shepherds are rarely on those lists, too.

Originally Posted by yukidomari

All dogs are technically wolf hybrids down to the littlest Chihuahua or the biggest Mastiff. They just lost count of what generation it is. I personally don't think it does the breed any favors by emphasizing it, though IMHO.

More like some long-lost common "wolf like" ancestor, but yes (this thought is continued below...)

Originally Posted by soniakanavle

Czech Vlcak had pure wolf introduced as late as the 1970's, and into a wolf/GSD cross so I think 40 years is a bit closer to the temperment of a real wolf rather than the hundreds [or thousands] of years with most breeds of dogs. Even 'wolfy' acting Siberians are years and years away from any wolf, though I don't deny they're hard to handle, a husky was my first dog and I learned a lot about what I know about dogs from her and it's sad to see them go into the wrong hands as well. .

I don't think it is the number of generations that will make a dog less wolfy as opposed to how they are bred. Luna is a lot like a malinois or a working like GSD puppy which, even though bratty and wild looking, she is nothing like the litter of Finnish spitz puppies we had whom were extremely wolf-like in temperament yet that is one of the oldest breeds in existence (almost extinct for a while, too).

I think the biggest difference in the tempeaments is that the more "working line' breeds show a lot of play drive while the wolf-like temperament breeds show more "hunting" drive while growing up.

[GalomyOak]

Maybe I speak just for my own state, but in Virginia, if you make a verbal representation of your dog being a "wolfdog" to any "official" - or in some cases, other people can say your dog has been representaed as a wolfdog - they are obligated, by law, to report it to animal control. "Official" holds veterinarians, certain dog trainers, and sheriff's deputies under it's umbrella. Now, it is possible to obtain a permit for a "wolfdog" (even if my dog doesn't fit the generally accepted < F5 definition) here...but no way I could afford the requirements, and it also requires you to keep your dog enclosed on your property 24/7...I plan on obtaining therapy dog status with Bongo in 1-2 months; don't really see him (or any of my dogs) as public enemy #1...I use Vlcak so I get the opportunity to evaluate the situation before judgments are made, and offer my dogs a little protection. The history of the breed is known, is public - typically, people know what they are buying (for now) - whether they use good common sense when buying is another issue...

Made it to Friday...

[yukidomari]

Originally Posted by draggar

I don't think it is the number of generations that will make a dog less wolfy as opposed to how they are bred. Luna is a lot like a malinois or a working like GSD puppy which, even though bratty and wild looking, she is nothing like the litter of Finnish spitz puppies we had whom were extremely wolf-like in temperament yet that is one of the oldest breeds in existence (almost extinct for a while, too).

Agreed. Reference the tame-fox project that took place in Russia. Selectively breeding for human friendliness and biddability can happen over the course of just a few generations.

Also, feral dogs like dingos (which recently in the news was said to be the oldest creature considered a 'dog' in the world) and New Guinea Singing Dogs can be kept as pets just a few short generations after removal from the wild. The NGSD is also a recognized breed in the UKC and FCI now.

Just a note: I don't think that dogs and foxes are in the same species.. they can't reproduce.. the AKC was just printing another rumor of where people think Chis come from.. I think.. Chis can genetically reproduce with all other dogs and yes, even wolves. A chi-wolf..

ETA: Breed bans.. ugh. That's true, though, Sonia.. Typically here they'll ban pit types, rotties, dobes, akita, great danes.. etc.

Yet if you have a dog similar to, say, an Akita like a Shikoku-ken, apparently you're fine.

[AMERICANI]

Polish Americans will also understand what they are..(although spelled different, the pronuciation isn't really). As Americans we know how big of an issue this can become. We just need to be extremely cautious on who we present our dogs to. I plan on only selling to people with the set intention of working: ie. security contractors, police departments, insurance companies, etc... I don't want every jackass that thinks they need one because it is new & cool to even have a shot at obtaining one through me. ....and 1 or 2 species of foxes (I have heard were capable of crossing with dogs), but the most common have the extra X chromosome...I'm not a geneticist, and thats ass far as I will go with that, but when I was a kid, me and a friend were trying to cross this crazy looking pheasant with a chicken...The eggs began to develop, but something went wrong and they didn't hatch.

[AMERICANI]

HEHEHE, I just looked up dog-fox hybrids on Wikipedia... There are no reported successful breedings. If it's on Wikipedia, it must be true...

[yukidomari]

Originally Posted by AMERICANI

HEHEHE, I just looked up dog-fox hybrids on Wikipedia... There are no reported successful breedings. If it's on Wikipedia, it must be true...

Obviously!

Anyway, I think it's been said before by Marcy on this thread, but 'wolfdog' according to one source means F5 or later... therefore vlcaks are not a wolf hybrid. It's just sad that there are so many ill intentioned people actually breeding wolf hybrids/wolfdogs without a background of breeding knowledge and lacking a good, solid program resulting in mixes unsuitable for pet keeping, and that 'Vlcak' happens to share their same name. Without tight, controlled breeding to wolves back in the day, Vlcaks could have been a disaster like so many unfortunate other wolfdogs.. (my older sister works in wolfdog rescue).. those dogs often turn out unsuitable for human keeping yet also unsuitable for wild living.

Once I knew through the grapevine one lady breeding 'hybrids'.. what she would do was take her female husky in heat and take her off to the woods where male wolves would get at her some time during the night.

Real responsible, course. Anything could have happened to be her bitch, and with any quality wolf of any temperament. Then she'd turn around and sell those dogs to anyone with money .. F1 crosses that are completely against the law in many, many areas and unsuitable for being a pet. Bad enough to be a backyard breeder.. much less messing with wolves.

[Mikael]

Originally Posted by yukidomari

All dogs are technically wolf hybrids down to the littlest Chihuahua or the biggest Mastiff...

Technically that is not 100% true...

The wolf and the dog has the same ancestors, and as they think now it all started whit smaller animals from a family called "Hesperocyoninae" they think there was about 28 species, from this species both dog and wolf developed.

But CsV and Saarloos are for sure related whit wolf, and I think both Husky and Malamute had a few mix in whit wolves under the years to.






Best regards / Mikael

As long as we're pulling out genetics...

I found this awhile back, and I thought it was super interesting. When they started doing genetic research on dogs to figure out the differences between breeds, they also figured out how similar the different breeds' DNA was to wolves. This site has a little write-up on the list along with the list itself, and how it's broken down:

http://www.ehretgsd.com/genetics.htm

It's really interesting to see that the breeds near the top, the ones most related to wolves, are all breeds that are known to be intelligent, but more independent in following commands. The further down on the list you go, the more the temperaments change to dogs that are more willing to follow commands. You'll note that there are really little *physical* characteristics that show "This dog is more like a wolf, this dog is further off," it really is mainly in temperament. What's even MORE interesting, is that GSDs are near the bottom of the list, mainly related to Mastiff types! It really makes me curious where CsVs would land on this list!

[yukidomari]

Originally Posted by Mikael

That still illustrates that all dogs are originally from some type of wolf, and they are all capable of reproducing with one another.. they are all subsets of wolf, under C. lupus familiaris even if throughout the years most have had newer subsets mixed in and not straight wolf.

The graph above is pulled from this article: (interesting to note this study in conjunction with Vicky's)

http://www.britainhill.com/GeneticStructure.pdf

Really interesting stuff! It'd be interesting to see where Vlcaks would fall.. Predominately I think the genetics would be closer to a GSDs, which is one of the most 'modified' genetics sets you can find.

[draggar]

Mikael - where did you get that? I'd like to see the site it came from.