Northern inuit dog

[Hanka]

Hmmmm, but why somebody can think about new wolf in breed? If do you mean wolfdogs have small "genopool", all breeders can help if they will use males from small bloodgroups. For example in Czech we needs more pups from Akenah Runar Wawanyanka, Argo Prizrak Karpat, Afis testamonium Diaboli..... etc etc. Every country can look at all males (thear pedigree from first dogs-males in population) and look - "what males ( grand grand grandfethers ) we have not in our country". It is most effective help for our breed. Not new wolves.

[Mikael]

Originally Posted by rolf

I think there is many problems(maybe it is just me), but here I will mention just a few of them :
Who will supervise the breeding program and have control with all puppies ? Who will have space, time and experience enough to have F1/F2/F3 puppies and to train with them and who will approve these people ? Which CSW`s/wolves/German shepherds should be used to make this new line or should there only be introduced new wolfblood ? Which F1/F2/F3 puppies should be used in the breeding(what will be the limits for exterier/character/training) and who will be jugde for this ? Should there be somekind of legal contract for F1/F2/F3-puppy owners to be a part of the breeding-program and how to make such a contract who accually will work in all countries ?

What will it help to make a new line, if some people still breed without HD-results, bonitation and according to standart without any effort to improve the breed(read post 111 by Saschia) ?

....I think it is not so easy as it might seems to be !

I think this is a little outside the thread, but very interesting

Greetings Rolf

Yes I know it will not bee easy at all and it will take time and cost money...

But I think it can and must bee done in the future...

FCI now only register breeds whit have minimum 8 different blood lines,
because of less than that will make a to small gene pool = big problems...

I was only thinking it maybe was time to start to collect the money in good time,
and maby start plan fore the future

But yes I´m far of the topic

Regards / Mikael

[Mikael]

Originally Posted by Hanka

Hmmmm, but why somebody can think about new wolf in breed? If do you mean wolfdogs have small "genopool", all breeders can help if they will use males from small bloodgroups. For example in Czech we needs more pups from Akenah Runar Wawanyanka, Argo Prizrak Karpat, Afis testamonium Diaboli..... etc etc. Every country can look at all males (thear pedigree from first dogs-males in population) and look - "what males ( grand grand grandfethers ) we have not in our country". It is most effective help for our breed. Not new wolves.

Yes I think you are right, that is a good coner to star in...
And try to keep a low COI % and less that 50 offsprings / dog
And to do HD, work and health tests...

Best regards / Mikael

[Juniorwolf]

Originally Posted by Mikael

Yes I know it will not bee easy at all and it will take time and cost money...

But I think it can and must bee done in the future...

FCI now only register breeds whit have minimum 8 different blood lines,
because of less than that will make a to small gene pool = big problems...

I was only thinking it maybe was time to start to collect the money in good time,
and maby start plan fore the future

But yes I´m far of the topic

Regards / Mikael

As Saschia and Hanka also is writing, I think it is more importent and efficient to have a good breeding plan for already excisting CSW`s, so maybe an international breedingkomitee for our breed would be a good idea, but this will be very difficult(if not impossible) I think ?
New lines do not help anything if people keep breeding without HD-results, bonitation and work/exterier-qualities ...sad but true

Greetings Rolf

[solowolf]

Originally Posted by loup-de-bretagne

Do you have a European wolf as well? Just curious.

I have european wolf at my friends home, in uk we are allowed to have from F3 onwards after we fought for law change, in Europe this would not be allowed,

[wolfin]

Originally Posted by solowolf

I have european wolf at my friends home, in uk we are allowed to have from F3 onwards after we fought for law change, in Europe this would not be allowed,

Hmm but who type- Karpatian? Sibir? Polish? or others type You have wolf?

[Juniorwolf]

Originally Posted by solowolf

I have european wolf at my friends home, in uk we are allowed to have from F3 onwards after we fought for law change, in Europe this would not be allowed,

To your information :
As far as I know UK is part of Europe
In Denmark(who also is part of Europe) all kinds of wolf-hybrids is allowed without any kind of special permission and there is no limits for how high percent wolfblood a dog can have, for pure wolves you must have a special permission, but it is VERY hard to get.
...and as far as I know it is also possible to get permission to have pure wolves in Czech rep.(who also is part of Europe)

Greetings Rolf

[Mikael]

Originally Posted by rolf

Did you ever experience a bonitation first hand ?

Bonitation is deffently not hard by any means, acually in my opinion it is too "soft" ! ...meassuring(the only good part in my opinion) should really be no problem for a well socialized dog and the character test is really weak/soft, in the character test happens not anything unusual for at dog who lives in a big city and in my opinion it is a shame to call it a character test, it should(in my opinion) be called "test of defending it selves with and without owner", because that is all there happens at the character test.

Greetings Rolf

No, I have not yet... but I do hope it is better than nothing

In Sweden we must do a MH test to breed CsV,
but I wont to do a bonitation on my dogs in the future to,
even if I do not realy need to by the Swedish kennel club...

Atleast I will get some kind of judgement and meassuring

Dogshows results in Sweden or Scandinavia do not have any value at all,
just as in most European contrys...therefore I think it is important to do a bonitation anyway.

Best regards / Mikael

[Juniorwolf]

Originally Posted by Mikael

No, I have not yet... but I do hope it is better than nothing

In Sweden we must do a MH test to breed CsV,
but I wont to do a bonitation on my dogs in the future to,
even if I do not realy need to by the Swedish kennel club...

Atleast I will get some kind of judgement and meassuring

Dogshows results in Sweden or Scandinavia do not have any value at all,
just as in most European contrys...therefore I think it is important to do a bonitation anyway.

Best regards / Mikael

Bonitation is a good thing because of meassuring and judgement of exterier, but the character-test at bonitation is just as useless as dogshows-results ...I hope the character-test at bonitation will be better sometime in the future ?

Greetings Rolf

[Vaiva]

Originally Posted by Mikael

No, I have not yet... but I do hope it is better than nothing

In Sweden we must do a MH test to breed CsV,
but I wont to do a bonitation on my dogs in the future to,
even if I do not realy need to by the Swedish kennel club...

Atleast I will get some kind of judgement and meassuring

Dogshows results in Sweden or Scandinavia do not have any value at all,
just as in most European contrys...therefore I think it is important to do a bonitation anyway.

Best regards / Mikael

You can come to Lithuania for bonitation Not that far

[Mikael]

Originally Posted by rolf

Bonitation is a good thing because of meassuring and judgement of exterier, but the character-test at bonitation is just as useless as dogshows-results ...I hope the character-test at bonitation will be better sometime in the future ?

Greetings Rolf

Good that I will do a Swedish MH test to then,
but I do not know about its quality internationall ???

Have you done the Danish MH test on Uno ???

If... how is it in comparison whit the bonitation´s MH test ???

Regards / Mikael

[Mikael]

Originally Posted by Vaiva

You can come to Lithuania for bonitation Not that far

Thanks fore the invitation maby in the future...

Best regards / Mikael

[Juniorwolf]

Originally Posted by Mikael

Good that I will do a Swedish MH test to then,
but I do not know about its quality internationall ???

Have you done the Danish MH test on Uno ???

If... how is it in comparison whit the bonitation´s MH test ???

Regards / Mikael

MH = Mental Health ?

I have not done any Mental Health/Character-test in Denmark with Uno and we have no rules for CSW saying that we should...
But I know how is works and it is much more complex than the character-test at bonitation, I think the most easy for me will be to explain how character-test at bonitation is done in Czech rep. :

First you have your dog on the leash and walk up to one person, shakes hands with the person and 3 other persons will join you in a way that you and your dog will stand in the middel of the 4 persons.
Then you put your dog on a chain which is attached to a pole and stand next to the dog, then a figurant walks by you and your dog, then the figurant turn around and make contact with your dog(letting the dog sniff his hand), the figurant is walking away, then he turn around and run towards you and your dog simulating an attack with a stick in his hand, then you go away and out of sight for your dog and the figurant do the same once again, but this time the dog is alone. ...thats all !!!

Ofcourse the dog should be relaxed, when figurant is walking by and it should be happy to greet the figurant when he makes contact, when the figurant simulate an attack, the dog should defend you and it selves.

Greetings Rolf

[Mikael]

Originally Posted by rolf

MH = Mental Health ?

I have not done any Mental Health/Character-test in Denmark with Uno and we have no rules for CSW saying that we should...
But I know how is works and it is much more complex than the character-test at bonitation, I think the most easy for me will be to explain how character-test at bonitation is done in Czech rep. :

You put your dog on a chain which is attached to a pole and stand next to the dog, then a figurant walks by you and your dog, then the figurant turn around and make contact with your dog(letting the dog sniff his hand), the figurant is walking away, then he turn around and run towards you and your dog simulating an attack with a stick in his hand, then you go away and out of sight for your dog and the figurant do the same once again, but this time the dog is alone. ...thats all !!!

Greetings Rolf

Yes sorry, MH test = Mental Health test

Hmmmmm... But this bonitation character test is something you can train your dog to be good at, not realy a real character test

But maby it is just to test if the dog is very shy ???

And I´m far of topic again, SORRY

regards / Mikael

[Juniorwolf]

Originally Posted by Mikael

Yes sorry, MH test = Mental Health test

Hmmmmm... But this bonitation character test is something you can train your dog to be good at, not realy a real character test

But maby it is just to test if the dog is very shy ???

And I´m far of topic again, SORRY

regards / Mikael

I agree and that is why the character-test at bonitation is worth nothing(or very little), but meassures is still importent

Greetings Rolf

[solowolf]

Originally Posted by wolfin

Hmm but who type- Karpatian? Sibir? Polish? or others type You have wolf?

what type i have and own lots of wolves,,,,,,,

[solowolf]

hi, i have been reading the posts, bonitations,,,, all very good, new lines? what to do? Ina ,Rona and others seem concerned about what goes on in the u.k., so lets have a look at whats going on in Europe, there is no boubt that the breed in lots of different countries is going through a change in apperance, just look at the pics on this site, if you breeders dont work and share linage, swap pups for linage then the cwd is in trouble, its happening as you read this, have a look for yourself
http://ukwolfdogs.com/cwd_in_europe_22.html and these dogs are all registered with pedigrees,,,,,,, untrust worthy people have cross bred in uk, and as i am not putting my first litter up for recognition they will never own a czech with pedigree, but look at these pics and i can add more every day, these cwd are registered and the offspring can be registered, all i want to know is how can you stop this? simple question, it is a fact we now have small dogs, soft fluffy coat dogs, shy dogs, health problems on the up, dogs being bred for looks, the cwd is a working breed and has a breed standard, many many cwd no longer come within the breed standard and are being used to breed of , i hope someone out there will do something soon?/////// i also see the uk flag and breeder has been removed from the data base, seems being out spoken on this site results in removing the link to my dogs from the general public who visit wolfdog.org. not a very nice crew, so you think my cwd and i will dissapear, wishfull thinking, i am doing article on the changing cwd and will use lots of photos in the article.

[solowolf]

Originally Posted by rolf

As Saschia and Hanka also is writing, I think it is more importent and efficient to have a good breeding plan for already excisting CSW`s, so maybe an international breedingkomitee for our breed would be a good idea, but this will be very difficult(if not impossible) I think ?
New lines do not help anything if people keep breeding without HD-results, bonitation and work/exterier-qualities ...sad but true

Greetings Rolf

Rolf if people are prepared to work together then it would be fantastic, the health tests must be done for best selection for breeding, but if breeder in one country has lines you needed then surley an arrangment coulld be done to swap puppies to help each other, then only transport costs, but Europe is big place and can still cost? but people travel all the time, i got dog from Germany, my friend in Holland met the person half way, my friend from France met the guy from Holland half way, i got the boat to France and got my dog saving me going all the way to Germany, its called working together, unless people are willing to work together then the breed will suffer as it is already, we can produce new lines from the wolf but there are enough lines without it but they need to be supplied to those who need it to keep the breed stable, best regards pacino

[saschia]

Originally Posted by Navajo

Surely if they don't meet the requirements of the breed standard, before the mating of such dogs takes place, the clubs should make it clear that anything bred from those will not be registered. If the offspring are not registered, there is little or no point at all in breeding from them.

Well, that's the problem - in some countries you can breed with such dogs and get pedigrees for your pups only if you get a permission, which has to based on something (other things about the dog are excellent and the dog has precious bloodline or something like that). But in others you can just breed anything, as long as the parents have papers, the pups will get them too. And either there is no local breeding club, or if there is it has no right to order or forbid anything, just make suggestions. The breeding clubs in countries of origin, although we are the guarantees for the breed, have no say.

Any overall breeding plan has no value, unless the breeders don't follow it and they won't. It is just not suitable enough for them, otherwise they would bonitate and X-ray their dogs, wouldn't they? So only thing we can do is make some breeding plans in our countries, make it easier for people from abroad to come for bonitations, sending our judges to do bonitations abroad etc.

You also have to remember that it is not about the money always, but lots of time it is. It is expensive for Slovaks to buy pups abroad. And even if you bring a pup, you have no assurance that it will grow into a good bitch/stud. Or you can breed your bitch abroad and hope that the pups will get into good hands and those which will be good would get through the process and be able to breed.

And of course as I mentioned before - most of animals bred abroad are no use to us, as they have no background for many generations, we don't know anything about their ancestors regarding the exterior, character and health.

[saschia]

Originally Posted by rolf

I agree and that is why the character-test at bonitation is worth nothing(or very little), but meassures is still importent

I don't think it is completely valueless. You can see extremely shy/aggresive dogs, which are needed to be put out of the breeding, and of course the behavior during measurement should be taken into account of the character.

Moreover, good judge can clearly see if the behavior at the pole is only hard-learned or is natural to the dog. It is actually not important that the dog defends agaist the figurant, it just has to show that it is not scared, often really good charactered dog will just step away from the guy, because they see that he is actually not dangerous. It is how the dog responds, moves, etc, that is evaluated (or should be), it's body language really tells a lot to experienced judge. What I see as a problem though is that the situation needs to be learned (that the dog stays alone somewhere, that there may be people around etc.) and this is sometimes a problem - if you cannot leave your dog somewhere alone for whatever reason (it can get stolen, harmed or in the other extreme taken away by dog rescue), it is not used to it and this affects really much how the dog behaves during the test. But this is different topic.

How does the MH exam look like?