Tamaskan Dogs..

[Mikael]

Originally Posted by Joswolf

I believe no wolfdogs were used in the creation of the original tamaskan but later on couse of health and inbreeding risk looked for new blood. I also believe now they wouldn't want an CWD any more couse they are bred for using agression.

Agression Lollllllll

Quote from CsV FCI Standard

ELIMINATING FAULTS: No 1, Aggresive or overly shy.

Best regards / Mikael

[GalomyOak]

Italian bred CSVs...the most aggressive of all!
http://picasaweb.google.com/galomyoa...08582197030818
http://picasaweb.google.com/galomyoa...08667466575714

[Gypsy Wolf]

Aggression is not a bad thing. It is the willingness to use force for defense. Our vlcaks must have that in their make-up as that was the whole purpose - to develop a dog that would defend the Border, aggressively if NEEDED. INAPPROPRIATE or uncontrolled aggression is a bad thing - and this can happen with poor character in just about any breed.

[Mikael]

Originally Posted by GalomyOak

Italian bred CSVs...the most aggressive of all!
http://picasaweb.google.com/galomyoa...08582197030818
http://picasaweb.google.com/galomyoa...08667466575714

Oooooooo, so so cute ... But where is the mother ???

PS, Yes Bongo is very good example of agressive CsV DS.

Best regards / Mikael

[Rona]

Originally Posted by Lunas Mom

Aggression is not a bad thing. .

I didn't say it was, but for me

breeding (dogs) for using agression

is bad. People who train dogs for dog fighting breed those dogs for "using agression".

Most honest CSV breeders attempt to breed dogs which would have trainable characters, i.e. their natural aggression would be under control and used for rational purposes only. Remember that the standard says that CSV should be "versatile in his uses" (sic!) as well as "lively, active, tough, obedient with quick reactions, fearless and courageous.". Nothing about agression as such, though definietely a shy dog will not be able to meet the standard requirement. I.e. if shyness is to be considered the opposite of agression, which for me makes no sense anyway* .

That's why I asked what Jos meant and I think he meant the requirements of the standard, only used ambiguous wording.

* Shyness & agression come from the same source: insecurity. A dog that has good character after his parents, is well trained and self-confident is neither shy, nor agressive

[Joswolf]

I didn't mean now it is selective breeding for be able to use force or agression. But i read about the CWD,-
qualities make the Wolfdog perfect for rescue missions and ever since the beginning of its existence it has been used by the border guard, military, police
Temperament,Fearless and courageous.
Shopuld de dog go licking the one to death or attack and bite? What else can you use a dog for at police or millitary.
A Saarloos is more the shy type, and therefor not self-confident but that is a wolf aswell. You can try show pics of friendly rabbit loving dogs but i now other CWD and can show you other pics of a more often showen behavour. I find it more showing less intellegents when you do not now what to do with food.
Jos

[Silvester]

Originally posted by Joswolf:

"You can try show pics of friendly rabbit loving dogs but i now other CWD and can show you other pics of a more often showen behavour. I find it more showing less intellegents when you do not now what to do with food."

Yes, i think Jos is right here ! For my experience, most CWD will show the natural behaviour when meeting a rabbit at close distance....

In this way , my old CWD was a very typical " rabbit- lover", and my new one - who just has become nine months old - has already the same intentions.

Of course, if you let raise up a CWD together with rabbits ( or with cats or other animals) he will get used to these animals and not hunt or kill them when adult.

But this is not the normal behaviour.

And at last : hunting and agression is of course NOT the same.

[hanninadina]

From my point of view Jos is right. In comparison to the other two wolfdog breeds, csw are the one who show if it comes to the point aggression. Saarloos and american wolfdogs go back and would not attack. And of course it is standard that a csw should attack, ok when needed.

It is now a days much better, but we had only 5-7 years ago lots of shy but aggressive csw as well. And please people it takes you to nothing to show fotos from dogs who are raised up with their own famly pets as Sylvester already quotes. And it means nothing if you live alone with your csw and do not go in between other dogs and people. The comparison can be make if you see a csw acting in between other dogs. And sorry to say, you can let Saarloos - adult animals I mean - run around without leash, the same with american wolfdogs, but you never would be able to let csw run around free. We did often the comparison.

And now please do not come with your examples of places like Margo in Hokys memorial, there are runing around mostly only family memebers (dogs) who know each other very well.

I mean if a csw comes to a meeting where he does not know other dogs.

Sure you will find it in other breeds to, but that is not the point. We are only talking about the 3 wolfdog breeds and Tamaskan.

Christian

[Rona]

Originally Posted by hanninadina

And sorry to say, you can let Saarloos - adult animals I mean - run around without leash, the same with american wolfdogs, but you never would be able to let csw run around free. We did often the comparison.

Christian, I showed you photos of CSV running unleashed together, though the majority of them met each other for the first time and except two, were adult. http://picasaweb.google.pl/rpaszkows...lcaksMeetings#
and asked you for comments. So did Elf in another topic, but you never replied only repeat the same nonsense again and again.

The fact that you cannot train your CSVs to be able to run unleashed among other dogs does not mean that others owners/breeders cannot

PS. Anticipating your argument that they were all from the same 'family', I'd like to add that they came from the following kennels: Radov Dvor and Maly Bysterec (Slovakia), z Peronówki, Braterstwo Wilczaków and Cwany Wilk (Poland), od Starkej and Srdcerváč (Czech Republic).

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

Obviously a lot of people have a lot of halluzinations



Uploaded with ImageShack.us

and some more, different occasions, different dogs, different owners and yes, you need an owner that is able to train a dog without the flight reaction of a wild animal.
http://img17.imageshack.us/slideshow...=dsc04956b.jpg

Ina

[Gypsy Wolf]

To Rona -
Aggression is NOT the opposite of shy. Aggression is the "drive" to use force to meet a situation. Prey drive (chase, capture, kill, eat) is aggression, dominance displays, territorial, protection/defense of pack/puppies, FEAR (BAD CHARACTER) based behaviors all carry aggression.
I am speaking strictly as an Ethologist/Behaviorist. Aggression is not bad, and it is a NECESSARY component of most successful species. Who wins the fight? And the winner gets the resources and more chances to reproduce. The Romans did not conquer most of the known world with peace and love, and despite what they preach, neither did Christians. It was aggression.
In dogs, we harness it. We breed to bring it out. As we domesticated wild canids (or really, they domesticated themselves), we decided it was better for us to breed dogs that had aggression levels that trumped their "flight response" - one reason real wolves/high content hybrids are not successful as protection dogs - if you run away, you live to fight another day. Their "resources" are better spent somewhere else!
COURAGE is the opposite of "shyness" - the willingness to engage a threat using aggression.
Again, INAPPROPRIATE, uncontrolled aggression is the danger. Owners who do not understand behavior and allow insecure/dominant dogs to "take over" - FEAR-AGGRESSIVE dogs that have a "low threshhold" for stimulus and will display or even attack when there is really no threat...
CsVs HAD to have a certain level of aggression in order to perform the job they were bred for. This is part of who they are. To breed for a temperament that carries none of this is a disservice to the breed, and really is NOT characteristic of the CsV, IMHO. Might as well have a Saarloos!
That is one reason I am a fan of working titles and temperament tests - to preserve and maintain the working drive of the breed.
I am not advocating breeding solely for a "grip" or a "low threshhold" (a lot of "breeders" do not understand behavior and aggression and breed incorrect temperament thinking that because his fear-aggressive dog display/bites it is indicative of correct character) I see this in Malinois all the time and all it does is produce an unsafe, unbalanced animal. But to remove correct aggression from our breed is wrong, too. A Unicorn without a horn is just a horse... all the magic is lost.

[GalomyOak]

To be sure, Bongo, my rabbit loving dog, had never seen a rabbit before - this one was removed from a cat, wild. He knows the command "leave it". When he finds rabbits out in the grass, he takes off after them - my dogs all have high prey drive. When I tell him "down" in that situation, he stops running - dead - and drops to the ground. He is also training in Schutzhund - along with my younger male. They have no problem placing their teeth on objects in the possession of people. At my command - and no problem taking their teeth off, at my command. It's not fearful aggression, and it's not necessarily a "natural" behavior - it's positive reinforcement of biting and holding the object in possession of a person - in the case of SchH, a bite sleeve. All of my dogs can be safely released around other stable dogs known or unknown - it's no problem. They don't assume the role of a submissive or shy omega as an AWD frequently does, however. They can all be released off leash around any person at any time, it's no problem for large men, small children or old ladies to play with my dogs - usually strangers, I'm a bit of a hermit . Two have received therapy dog certification, Bongo will hopefully recieve his this autumn. All very different lines from distant countries. This is training and socialization - exposing and teaching how to act in all situations. Yes, they are family raised dogs, but with sufficient time spent on their own in runs when I am not at home...aren't most CSVs nowadays?

[Gypsy Wolf]

Marcy,
FYI, in case no one mentioned it - the full grip and stability you see in your dogs' bitework is a manifestation of prey drive. It's in the full, confident grip, the "carry" and the desire to tug it away from the helper. A GOOD thing. Sometimes you will see (typically nervy Malinois or some DDR GSDs) "civil" or "defense" aggression in the sport - there's usually a different-sounding bark - more shrill, LOTS of teeth and spit and often coupled with more shallow grips and a lot of kill-shaking - even on the helper's arm! You will see if the sleeve is thrown, the dog will still want to go after the man - where as a "prey" dog just wants the toy! It is not preferred - not only due to the crappy bite, but also it is a more unstable sort of aggression - needs to be highly controlled.
It isn't always a bad thing, either, though... my first Malinois had a LOT of civil drive, but ONLY in appropriate situations. She was my "ribbon" dog - always placing in the top spots in all sorts of venues, we used her as the local SPCA's Demo Dog for their obedience program, she earned a Canine Good Citizen and even got a Therapy Dog certification. Obviously, she was a very safe dog. On the SchH field, though - make sure you have pants on.

[Rona]

Originally Posted by Lunas Mom

To Rona -
Aggression is NOT the opposite of shy. Aggression is the "drive" to use force to meet a situation. Prey drive (chase, capture, kill, eat) is aggression, dominance displays, territorial, protection/defense of pack/puppies, FEAR (BAD CHARACTER) based behaviors all carry aggression.(...)
I am speaking strictly as an Ethologist/Behaviorist..

This is exactly, what I claimed

The word "agression" is used (at least in Europe) in several contexts. It can either be used in scintific- ethologist sense, as you use it, or in a "popular" sense, where agressive dogs try to attack/devour every creature they meet. I was just wondering which meaning Jos had in mind and I'm happy with his explanations

I think CSV have strong natural agressive (in the scientific sense!) drives, which make them lively, active, fearless, etc. but since they're versatile, they can be trained to function in versatile environments. Some behaviours are easier to be trained, some - more difficult, but I belive it's just the matter of determination of the owner and the owner-dog relationship

[Gypsy Wolf]

Yes, I love that about them, too!
I just wanted to clarify terminology so someone unfamiliar with "aggression" and vlcaks could better understand the true character of the breed as well as the temperament traits we discuss here. Wouldn't want someone frightened away thinking they are ravenous evil beasts (well, Luna is sometimes... )...

[GalomyOak]

I think most people think of aggression in the "popular" sense. I think that is why it's used in the standard as a disqualifying term. For me, drive is a more accurate term - aggression is too general, I guess, can mean too many things to the general public. Drive refers to what motivates/initiates a behavior. When people have not trained in protection work and have no clue (most of the general public, and even most dog owners) - saying aggression evokes only thoughts of the "popular" meaning. I found myself clarifying this frequently - to my mother who envisioned her 4 legged grandchildren being made "aggressive" and attacking anything that moved when I told her about my SchH training - or last night to the lady at my "meet-the-breed" presentation who described evil, aggressive dogs she had seen in protection work, as she hugged all over Bongo (complete stranger) who licked her profusely - as he does everyone in everyday situations - and without thinking or asking, opened his mouth to see his long canine teeth...

[Rona]

Originally Posted by GalomyOak

I found myself clarifying this frequently - to my mother who envisioned her 4 legged grandchildren being made "aggressive" and attacking anything that moved when I told her about my SchH training

I know what you mean... whenever I try to answer the question "how it's possible that the dog looks like a wolf", the first reaction is: "is she agressive?"

Originally Posted by GalomyOak

- or last night to the lady at my "meet-the-breed" presentation who described evil, aggressive dogs she had seen in protection work, as she hugged all over Bongo (complete stranger) who licked her profusely - as he does everyone in everyday situations - and without thinking or asking, opened his mouth to see his long canine teeth...

A couple of days ago we were passing a young man, who suddenly slowed down and walked staring intensly at Lorka... when they caught eye contact she jumped and gave him a warm greeting with a "kiss", which she doesn't do any more to strangers. I apologised and we started talking. It turned out he was German. He asked if this was a CSV, because, as he said, he was fascinated with the breed and it was the first CSV he saw live. He was exetremely surprsied that Lorka was so friendly and not shy at all, because when he called some German breeder to enquire about a pup some time ago, he was told CSVs are very shy, often agressive and unsuitable to live in a town... I wonder which German breeder it was...

[Fede86]

Originally Posted by Rona

The fact that you cannot train your CSVs to be able to run unleashed among other dogs does not mean that others owners/breeders cannot

mmmmmmh... I don't think the point is if you can or can not do it... of course if you work well and hard enough you can, whatever the breed. The point is how difficult it is. Surely it's not a spontaneous behavior for them (or better yet, for most of them), and not so easy to obtain.

[Rona]

Originally Posted by Fede86

mmmmmmh... I don't think the point is if you can or can not do it... of course if you work well and hard enough you can, whatever the breed. The point is how difficult it is. Surely it's not a spontaneous behavior for them (or better yet, for most of them), and not so easy to obtain.

Agree! It's not easy, maybe not every dog can be trained but one should not generalize that it's impossible if there are cases/stories/witnesses/photos, etc. which show the opposite.

I just don't undersand people who always 'know best' but derive their knowledge solely from their own exprience.

[hanninadina]

Rona, I know you are one of these csw people who always do not want to understand what I write. My experienced is not only based on my dogs but on about 15 csw meetings with about 400 csw! My experienced is based on 4 meetings with other wolfdog breeds about 150. My experienced is based by walking csw on doggie places in different cities with other dogs!

I made a comparison to all and than I made my mind up! And not only based on my own dogs. By the way Tala I can let run everywhere and he will come when I call him. Myla is of course a bit difficult because she has a really strong mind and character and those animals are always more difficult.

By the way I used to live for 2 years with 6 "normal" dogs and I did not even train them and they listened to every "looking" from me! Maybe you do not have a lot experience with different kinds of dogs and wolfdogs, only with your city dogs. I can not understand people who are not able to be honest in csws! That is the point that many people have problems with that breed. Sorry to say.

CSWs are in the breed themselves very different. Because one are more gsd and one are more wolf. It is logical because they are much more closer to wolf than any other normal dogbreed. So even in one litter the animals can behave different despite from individual character which every animal have too.

I know it is useless to discuss it with you Rona. You wear the one and only csw glaces and what ever will be posted from your opinion "against" (but it is not against what I write I only want the people to know what normally happens so that they are prepared and do not get unhappy with it, because there are people who gave than their dog away), you will come with your own experience. But sorry, your experience is small because I doubt that you know american wolfdogs and Saarloos in meeting.

Christian