Tamaskan Dogs..

[Rona]

Originally Posted by hanninadina

And sorry to say, you can let Saarloos - adult animals I mean - run around without leash, the same with american wolfdogs, but you never would be able to let csw run around free. We did often the comparison.

Christian, I showed you photos of CSV running unleashed together, though the majority of them met each other for the first time and except two, were adult. http://picasaweb.google.pl/rpaszkows...lcaksMeetings#
and asked you for comments. So did Elf in another topic, but you never replied only repeat the same nonsense again and again.

The fact that you cannot train your CSVs to be able to run unleashed among other dogs does not mean that others owners/breeders cannot

PS. Anticipating your argument that they were all from the same 'family', I'd like to add that they came from the following kennels: Radov Dvor and Maly Bysterec (Slovakia), z Peronówki, Braterstwo Wilczaków and Cwany Wilk (Poland), od Starkej and Srdcerváč (Czech Republic).

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

Obviously a lot of people have a lot of halluzinations



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and some more, different occasions, different dogs, different owners and yes, you need an owner that is able to train a dog without the flight reaction of a wild animal.
http://img17.imageshack.us/slideshow...=dsc04956b.jpg

Ina

[Gypsy Wolf]

To Rona -
Aggression is NOT the opposite of shy. Aggression is the "drive" to use force to meet a situation. Prey drive (chase, capture, kill, eat) is aggression, dominance displays, territorial, protection/defense of pack/puppies, FEAR (BAD CHARACTER) based behaviors all carry aggression.
I am speaking strictly as an Ethologist/Behaviorist. Aggression is not bad, and it is a NECESSARY component of most successful species. Who wins the fight? And the winner gets the resources and more chances to reproduce. The Romans did not conquer most of the known world with peace and love, and despite what they preach, neither did Christians. It was aggression.
In dogs, we harness it. We breed to bring it out. As we domesticated wild canids (or really, they domesticated themselves), we decided it was better for us to breed dogs that had aggression levels that trumped their "flight response" - one reason real wolves/high content hybrids are not successful as protection dogs - if you run away, you live to fight another day. Their "resources" are better spent somewhere else!
COURAGE is the opposite of "shyness" - the willingness to engage a threat using aggression.
Again, INAPPROPRIATE, uncontrolled aggression is the danger. Owners who do not understand behavior and allow insecure/dominant dogs to "take over" - FEAR-AGGRESSIVE dogs that have a "low threshhold" for stimulus and will display or even attack when there is really no threat...
CsVs HAD to have a certain level of aggression in order to perform the job they were bred for. This is part of who they are. To breed for a temperament that carries none of this is a disservice to the breed, and really is NOT characteristic of the CsV, IMHO. Might as well have a Saarloos!
That is one reason I am a fan of working titles and temperament tests - to preserve and maintain the working drive of the breed.
I am not advocating breeding solely for a "grip" or a "low threshhold" (a lot of "breeders" do not understand behavior and aggression and breed incorrect temperament thinking that because his fear-aggressive dog display/bites it is indicative of correct character) I see this in Malinois all the time and all it does is produce an unsafe, unbalanced animal. But to remove correct aggression from our breed is wrong, too. A Unicorn without a horn is just a horse... all the magic is lost.

[Rona]

Originally Posted by Lunas Mom

To Rona -
Aggression is NOT the opposite of shy. Aggression is the "drive" to use force to meet a situation. Prey drive (chase, capture, kill, eat) is aggression, dominance displays, territorial, protection/defense of pack/puppies, FEAR (BAD CHARACTER) based behaviors all carry aggression.(...)
I am speaking strictly as an Ethologist/Behaviorist..

This is exactly, what I claimed

The word "agression" is used (at least in Europe) in several contexts. It can either be used in scintific- ethologist sense, as you use it, or in a "popular" sense, where agressive dogs try to attack/devour every creature they meet. I was just wondering which meaning Jos had in mind and I'm happy with his explanations

I think CSV have strong natural agressive (in the scientific sense!) drives, which make them lively, active, fearless, etc. but since they're versatile, they can be trained to function in versatile environments. Some behaviours are easier to be trained, some - more difficult, but I belive it's just the matter of determination of the owner and the owner-dog relationship

[Gypsy Wolf]

Yes, I love that about them, too!
I just wanted to clarify terminology so someone unfamiliar with "aggression" and vlcaks could better understand the true character of the breed as well as the temperament traits we discuss here. Wouldn't want someone frightened away thinking they are ravenous evil beasts (well, Luna is sometimes... )...

[GalomyOak]

I think most people think of aggression in the "popular" sense. I think that is why it's used in the standard as a disqualifying term. For me, drive is a more accurate term - aggression is too general, I guess, can mean too many things to the general public. Drive refers to what motivates/initiates a behavior. When people have not trained in protection work and have no clue (most of the general public, and even most dog owners) - saying aggression evokes only thoughts of the "popular" meaning. I found myself clarifying this frequently - to my mother who envisioned her 4 legged grandchildren being made "aggressive" and attacking anything that moved when I told her about my SchH training - or last night to the lady at my "meet-the-breed" presentation who described evil, aggressive dogs she had seen in protection work, as she hugged all over Bongo (complete stranger) who licked her profusely - as he does everyone in everyday situations - and without thinking or asking, opened his mouth to see his long canine teeth...

[Rona]

Originally Posted by GalomyOak

I found myself clarifying this frequently - to my mother who envisioned her 4 legged grandchildren being made "aggressive" and attacking anything that moved when I told her about my SchH training

I know what you mean... whenever I try to answer the question "how it's possible that the dog looks like a wolf", the first reaction is: "is she agressive?"

Originally Posted by GalomyOak

- or last night to the lady at my "meet-the-breed" presentation who described evil, aggressive dogs she had seen in protection work, as she hugged all over Bongo (complete stranger) who licked her profusely - as he does everyone in everyday situations - and without thinking or asking, opened his mouth to see his long canine teeth...

A couple of days ago we were passing a young man, who suddenly slowed down and walked staring intensly at Lorka... when they caught eye contact she jumped and gave him a warm greeting with a "kiss", which she doesn't do any more to strangers. I apologised and we started talking. It turned out he was German. He asked if this was a CSV, because, as he said, he was fascinated with the breed and it was the first CSV he saw live. He was exetremely surprsied that Lorka was so friendly and not shy at all, because when he called some German breeder to enquire about a pup some time ago, he was told CSVs are very shy, often agressive and unsuitable to live in a town... I wonder which German breeder it was...

[GalomyOak]

To be sure, Bongo, my rabbit loving dog, had never seen a rabbit before - this one was removed from a cat, wild. He knows the command "leave it". When he finds rabbits out in the grass, he takes off after them - my dogs all have high prey drive. When I tell him "down" in that situation, he stops running - dead - and drops to the ground. He is also training in Schutzhund - along with my younger male. They have no problem placing their teeth on objects in the possession of people. At my command - and no problem taking their teeth off, at my command. It's not fearful aggression, and it's not necessarily a "natural" behavior - it's positive reinforcement of biting and holding the object in possession of a person - in the case of SchH, a bite sleeve. All of my dogs can be safely released around other stable dogs known or unknown - it's no problem. They don't assume the role of a submissive or shy omega as an AWD frequently does, however. They can all be released off leash around any person at any time, it's no problem for large men, small children or old ladies to play with my dogs - usually strangers, I'm a bit of a hermit . Two have received therapy dog certification, Bongo will hopefully recieve his this autumn. All very different lines from distant countries. This is training and socialization - exposing and teaching how to act in all situations. Yes, they are family raised dogs, but with sufficient time spent on their own in runs when I am not at home...aren't most CSVs nowadays?

[Gypsy Wolf]

Marcy,
FYI, in case no one mentioned it - the full grip and stability you see in your dogs' bitework is a manifestation of prey drive. It's in the full, confident grip, the "carry" and the desire to tug it away from the helper. A GOOD thing. Sometimes you will see (typically nervy Malinois or some DDR GSDs) "civil" or "defense" aggression in the sport - there's usually a different-sounding bark - more shrill, LOTS of teeth and spit and often coupled with more shallow grips and a lot of kill-shaking - even on the helper's arm! You will see if the sleeve is thrown, the dog will still want to go after the man - where as a "prey" dog just wants the toy! It is not preferred - not only due to the crappy bite, but also it is a more unstable sort of aggression - needs to be highly controlled.
It isn't always a bad thing, either, though... my first Malinois had a LOT of civil drive, but ONLY in appropriate situations. She was my "ribbon" dog - always placing in the top spots in all sorts of venues, we used her as the local SPCA's Demo Dog for their obedience program, she earned a Canine Good Citizen and even got a Therapy Dog certification. Obviously, she was a very safe dog. On the SchH field, though - make sure you have pants on.

[Fede86]

Originally Posted by Rona

The fact that you cannot train your CSVs to be able to run unleashed among other dogs does not mean that others owners/breeders cannot

mmmmmmh... I don't think the point is if you can or can not do it... of course if you work well and hard enough you can, whatever the breed. The point is how difficult it is. Surely it's not a spontaneous behavior for them (or better yet, for most of them), and not so easy to obtain.

[Rona]

Originally Posted by Fede86

mmmmmmh... I don't think the point is if you can or can not do it... of course if you work well and hard enough you can, whatever the breed. The point is how difficult it is. Surely it's not a spontaneous behavior for them (or better yet, for most of them), and not so easy to obtain.

Agree! It's not easy, maybe not every dog can be trained but one should not generalize that it's impossible if there are cases/stories/witnesses/photos, etc. which show the opposite.

I just don't undersand people who always 'know best' but derive their knowledge solely from their own exprience.

[hanninadina]

Rona, I know you are one of these csw people who always do not want to understand what I write. My experienced is not only based on my dogs but on about 15 csw meetings with about 400 csw! My experienced is based on 4 meetings with other wolfdog breeds about 150. My experienced is based by walking csw on doggie places in different cities with other dogs!

I made a comparison to all and than I made my mind up! And not only based on my own dogs. By the way Tala I can let run everywhere and he will come when I call him. Myla is of course a bit difficult because she has a really strong mind and character and those animals are always more difficult.

By the way I used to live for 2 years with 6 "normal" dogs and I did not even train them and they listened to every "looking" from me! Maybe you do not have a lot experience with different kinds of dogs and wolfdogs, only with your city dogs. I can not understand people who are not able to be honest in csws! That is the point that many people have problems with that breed. Sorry to say.

CSWs are in the breed themselves very different. Because one are more gsd and one are more wolf. It is logical because they are much more closer to wolf than any other normal dogbreed. So even in one litter the animals can behave different despite from individual character which every animal have too.

I know it is useless to discuss it with you Rona. You wear the one and only csw glaces and what ever will be posted from your opinion "against" (but it is not against what I write I only want the people to know what normally happens so that they are prepared and do not get unhappy with it, because there are people who gave than their dog away), you will come with your own experience. But sorry, your experience is small because I doubt that you know american wolfdogs and Saarloos in meeting.

Christian

[Rona]

Sorry Christian, but it's you who don't understand what I'm writing.

I never said that my experience with wolfdogs was big. In reaction to your repeated claim that it's impossible to raise a CSV so that he/she would be able to run unleashed and play with other dogs when adult, I'm just describing what I've seen with my own eyes: the owners of Argo od Starkej, Kanti Radov Dvor, Evan Braterstwo Wilczakow, etc. can recall their dogs when they need when the dogs are running on public meadows. In other words, your statement is not 100% valid. But since you seem to be deaf to arguments, further discussion is a waste of time

I don't think it matters if the dogs've been raised in the city or in the countryside, but how they're raised, what the priorities of the owners were, how much effort they put in training and it also depends on the character of a specific individual. I never said that it was easy or natural for CSV to act golden retrievers.

[Tazer]

Ah yes, I remember that website.

Reminds me that one of the main people responsible for it some time ago said they have actual proof of there being wolf in the TDR tamaskan lines.
They also said that they would provide the proof, for all to see.

Now, as the proof has to my knowledge never been provided to back up their claim, it gives me two reasons to play with as to why this is:

1. They've got the universes slowest scanner.

2. They were talking a load of bs and never had the proof to begin with.

Which do you all think is most likely?

They complain about the possible use of csvs and high content wolfdogs in the tamaskan lines, but are quite happy to try and use some of these dogs themselves.

Pot, kettle, black.


Taz

[yukidomari]

Originally Posted by Tazer

Now, as the proof has to my knowledge never been provided to back up their claim, it gives me two reasons to play with as to why this is:

Tazer - As of last year a dog out of a Blustag kennel litter was proven by DNA link to be the progeny of the F1 wolfdog Valko aka Whitefang, as stated by Tuuli at post #2 (with scans of the DNA results).

As I understand the complaint is transparency, or lack thereof, not that wolfdogs are not to be used per se.

[Tazer]

Interesting posts thank you. I do live in the uk so was aware of DEFRA's view change with regards to Csvs Swhs and hybrids, but thanks for pointing it out anyway.

Its just so confusing and frustraiting, I've been researching the erm wolf look alike types for several years and the lies, cover ups, half truths, U turns and the apparent pedigree fakings/alterings make it hard to outright believe or not believe anyone.

For an example, in the mid 90s their was a programme on the tv in the uk, a dog was on who's owner claimed him to be an F4 hybrid. Upon being investigated by DEFRA (called something else back then but can't remember what) the dog over night became not a hybrid, so did all the owners other dogs. The owner got off on a technicality and her dogs went on to be called northern inuits, which also apparently have no added wolf content. Yet one of the founder stud dogs, was the very same dog she refered to as an F4 hybrid on the tv.

I recall watching the programme at the time vaguely and have seen it again more recently, it was posted on another forum and is probably still there somewhere.

But yes this is a Csv forum and I should get back to lurking in the csv sections lol. Whilst hoping that one day the uk will get some good, ethical breeders that want to see the breed thrive hear, instead of just a tool to mix with whatever to make money.


Taz

[miran]

I have no proof of that there is wolf or hybrid in the Tamaskan but I know there is CVs in there and I am the one who has the proof for the SwH.
Why didn't I put that up on internet, just simple I like the breed Tamaskan no matter if it is in there or not.

I just think that people should know but it doesn't make the dogs any less and the thinks about easier to train etc is still true..... so why is all that fighting about it necessary???
Am I ok with that they made false pedigree's? No of course I am not but we all know every breed have issues like that and you just have to know witch breeder you have to take.

[Tazer]

I'd wondered why you hadn't been round the Tamaskan forum lately. I do miss looking at pics of your gorgeous dogs. I did suspect that this was the reason, you were the only one I could think of who owned a saarloos.

I don't think the dogs are any lesser, Tamaskan sound and look like really great dogs. After the amount of times I've heard of breeders within the various wolf lookalike types, finding issues only to stick their heads in the sand and pretend that if they ignore it, it will just magicly go away, its nice to see a group being open about the health issue and taking steps to deal with it.

My only concern with using a Saarloos would be their tendancy towards shyness, nice looking dogs though, but don't think the Swh is the right breed for me.

Taz

[miran]

I also do not find every Saarloos line an addition to the breed. In temprement I do can say I found him at the time good for that because he isn't shy at all and all of his kids are also not shy at all(Saarloos kids as well)
Not every Saarloos line is shy

And believe me that also the TDR and the TBA had struggles about being open with health issues but I am glad that these days that is going better.

I'd wondered why you hadn't been round the Tamaskan forum lately. I do miss looking at pics of your gorgeous dogs. I did suspect that this was the reason, you were the only one I could think of who owned a saarloos.

thanks but yes that is one of the reasons but my dogs pics can also been seen on my own website

[Tazer]

Nice to read your saarloos isn't shy and that neither is his offspring. The picture that has been painted of the saarloos breed over here is that they're almost all shy and or nervous of unfamiliar people and environments. But then I suspect that is because the dogs that were imported over here (if they are indeed pure saarloos), appeared to be under handled and poorly socialised.

Infact, the original importer described them as all being at various stages of feral. One escaped and gave birth to a pup in a den out in the woods and another was shot because of agression. The escaped one and her pup were recaptured, I've no idea how the pup is doing but from what I last heard, the mother was settled in her home. She was rehomed from the original breeder/owner a couple of years ago now.

Ref tamaskans

Yes I was aware that there wasn't always the same level of transparency with regards to health issues as there is today. The past can't be changed but the future can.

Taz