Epilepsy and wolfdogs!? - Page 2

Margo · 09-11-2008, 14:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by loco

At the moment on the Dutch forum this is a Hot topic

, and now I heard off several diffrent cases off Epilepsy in the breed of CSW

.
I really start to wonder how big is the problem Epilepsy in the breed of the CSW ??

The problem is NO. I would even say we get less infromation about such cases by CzW than before... Sure from time to time we get info about ill dog but so far (with the exception of the german case mentionen by Ina) it was not "going in a line".

And we have pretty good overview over the populatins in Czech Republic, Gemany, Poland and Slovakia...

So the Holland case is really an exception - there are more registered cases of epilepsy in Holland than in ALL other countries together. The next problem is - in NL you have dogs imported from different countries, different cases - it means different lines, different genetics BUT ALWAYS the same problem...
So my suggestion is: don't you think in can not be the problem of CzW or genetic reasons for the illness but the problem can be is the country...? I mean it really - maybe there is something what make the country different and what do not 'aapear' in other - what can be the reason for such big amount of epilepsy cases..?

There are different reasons for epilepsy - look on them:

Root Cause Of Seizures In Dogs
* Brain Tumors
* Genetic Factors
* Head Trama
* Hereditary Factors
* Infection, Cysts and Cancer
* Lead, Chemicals, Additives and Poisoning
* Liver Disease
* Low Blood Sugar
* Renal Kidney Failure
* Severe Worm Infestation
* Vaccinations
* Vitamin Deficiencies

Other Factors That May Trigger A Seizure In Dogs
* Abuse or neglect
* Air fresheners
* All toxic flea products
* BHA - a preservative commonly found in dog foods
* BHT- a preservative commonly found in dog foods
* Carpet powders
* Cell Phones
* Cigarette smoke
* Dryer sheets
* Dust
* Eating cat or dog feces
* Ethoxyquin- a preservative commonly found in dog foods
* Excessive exercise
* Fabric softeners
* Fumes from all bathroom cleaners
* Fumes from bleach
* Fumes from dusting products
* Fungi, Bacteria and Germs
* Hair spray
* Heartworm Pills
* Household cleaners, including pine cleaners
* Loud noises
* Low quality canned dog food
* Low quality commercial dog biscuits and treats
* Low quality dry dog food
* Lyme Encephalitis
* Lyme Vaccine
* Mold
* Overheating
* Paint chips from lead based paint
* Paint fumes
* Plastic bowls
* Rabies Vaccine
* Rawhides
* Red food dye- a preservative commonly found in dog foods
* Salt, Sugar, Aspartame, Monosodium Glutamate
* Scented candles
* Sodium Nitrate
* Stress
* Toxic flea collars
* Toxic shampoos and dips
* Vaccinations
* Vitamins with high sodium level

So it would be enough when the vets use specific kind of vaccine or the food producers (some factories produce dog food for differeent companies so you can find the same problem in different kinds of dog food (different labels)) produce food what cause sometimes seizures by some dogs....

It is just a suggestion because if there are more dogs with epilepsy in Holland than in any other country it can be something from this list or... Dutch owners have really bad luck while choosing the puppies...

loco · 09-11-2008, 15:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Margo

I mean it really - maybe there is something what make the country different and what do not 'aapear' in other - what can be the reason for such big amount of epilepsy cases..?
..

Wow, I did not speak over a big amount of cases

.
I spoke over several or a few

.

And Hanka told there are also a few in CZ, so that is not so diffrent from Holland

.
And the other thing I spoke about, that it is a hot topic on the Dutch forum

.

Groette Martine.

loco · 09-11-2008, 15:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Margo

The problem is NO. I would even say we get less infromation about such cases by CzW than before... Sure from time to time we get info about ill dog but so far (with the exception of the german case mentionen by Ina) it was not "going in a line".

And we have pretty good overview over the populatins in Czech Republic, Gemany, Poland and Slovakia...
...

But Thank you for this answer

.

Margo · 09-11-2008, 16:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by loco

Wow, I did not speak over a big amount of cases

.
I spoke over several or a few

.

And Hanka told there are also a few in CZ, so that is not so diffrent from Holland

.

I also do not speak about big amount... If it would be so there will be for sure some official investigations in this case...

I mean more the number of wolfdogs per number the CzW in the specific country...

We have in Poland 150 CzWs and not even one known cases of seizures (and I do not count the official numbers only

). In Germany there are about 500 CzW - it would be interestig how many OTHER cases knows Ina which DO NOT belong to the "ill" line.... I think it will be very few...
In Czech Republic we have over 1000... But it will be very hard do count because the information flow in CZ is worser than in other coutries (it is not possible to keep contact with all the owners).

So I do not mean the are MANY CzW with seizures in NL but that there are more that in other countries... If the topic become HOT TOPIC it means people see there is something wrong....
If the population in NL counts about 240 CzW and there are already some cases (4,5,6..) it is already much more there somewhere else....

I don't attack Dutch people that they do something wrong. I just say that there can be internal problem bif so far it is not possible to trace the lines in NL. Maybe it is really not about the lines but there are other reasons...

I mean something like the problem with the milk in France.
There also famous case in America now - some very famous companies in USA are sued at the moment because they improted rice from China which caused many cases of kidney failure and also cases of poisoning by dogs. Many dogs died because of it... And really very famous dog food marks are involved in it...
For sure many dog owners there started to think the health of some breeds get worser because there are more kindney problems that before...

What I mean - let's say Acana import some poisoned ingredient from China... The "infected" food comes to Poland and in the "epilepsy free" population we will get pretty many cases of epilepsy by CzW... even if the genetic of the breed has nothing to do with it...

loco · 09-11-2008, 16:23

But,.............................this one line in Germany, should this not be known by other breeders ??

Groette Martine.

loco · 09-11-2008, 16:50

4 Dogs with Epilepsy in Holland which I heard off.

One from Poland who has primair epilepsy.
One from Holland who has epilepsy but do not know yet, if it is primair or secundair.
One from Holland who has primair epilepsy.
One from Holland who has secundair because off a other faillure off the body.

And the discussion is mostly about should you shut out all the line off the dog who has epilepsy ??( this is deffently not possible if you want to keep the breed )
Or only the dog ??
Some part off the bloodline ?? if yes untill how far you goes ??
How big is the problem ??
Is it wise to make a publiclist with dogs who has it ??
Aso aso aso.
Because it just is a disease which is really terrible for the dog but also for the owner.
I do not believe the story of milk or anything like that

but on everything else I have a open mind

.

Groette Martine.

loco · 09-11-2008, 16:57

Sorry forgot

.
Also the discussion goes.
How do you really know when it is primair and secundair we al know what is the diffrent but.....................
Should you trust the first veterinair, our should you go for a second opinion ???????? if the first say it is primair!!!

Groette Martine.

loco · 09-11-2008, 17:01

And now it will be very intresting to also know how many cases there are known in Italie, France and the other country in Europe

.

Groette Martine.

Margo · 09-11-2008, 17:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by loco

How do you really know when it is primair and secundair we al know what is the diffrent but.....................
Should you trust the first veterinair, our should you go for a second opinion ???????? if the first say it is primair!!!

Primary epilepsy is a genetic based inheritated type of epilepsy. So far there are NO diagnostics which can make the vet sure it is exactly such type...
Allthe vet can do is to rule out all other possibilities. So it means it is primar GENETIC epilepsy when it is not caused by:

* Brain Tumors
* Head Trama
* Infection, Cysts and Cancer
* Lead, Chemicals, Additives and Poisoning
* Liver Disease
* Low Blood Sugar
* Renal Kidney Failure
* Severe Worm Infestation
* Vaccinations
* Vitamin Deficiencies
* Abuse or neglect
* Air fresheners
* All toxic flea products
* BHA - a preservative commonly found in dog foods
* BHT- a preservative commonly found in dog foods
* Carpet powders
* Cell Phones
* Cigarette smoke
* Dryer sheets
* Dust
* Eating cat or dog feces
* Ethoxyquin- a preservative commonly found in dog foods
* Excessive exercise
* Fabric softeners
* Fumes from all bathroom cleaners
* Fumes from bleach
* Fumes from dusting products
* Fungi, Bacteria and Germs
* Hair spray
* Heartworm Pills
* Household cleaners, including pine cleaners
* Loud noises
* Low quality canned dog food
* Low quality commercial dog biscuits and treats
* Low quality dry dog food
* Lyme Encephalitis
* Lyme Vaccine
* Mold
* Overheating
* Paint chips from lead based paint
* Paint fumes
* Plastic bowls
* Rabies Vaccine
* Rawhides
* Red food dye- a preservative commonly found in dog foods
* Salt, Sugar, Aspartame, Monosodium Glutamate
* Scented candles
* Sodium Nitrate
* Stress
* Toxic flea collars
* Toxic shampoos and dips
* Vaccinations
* Vitamins with high sodium level

So much theory... And the reality is: the vets are saying it is primar when they do not find the reason for it... You see it is simple not possible to rule out all the possible reasons... So all they make are more or less tests (blood, usg, aso...) - in the most cases they check ONLY the blood... and done... for them it is primar...

But to be honest - when you see this list a vet can NEVER say it is primar - till there will be no DNA tests...

loco · 09-11-2008, 17:50

oeps sorry.
But I hope that you copypaste the list

.

Back to Topic,

That is mine point exactly, to have peace with "if we can not find anything thene" it will be .......(in this case Primair Epilepsy)

.

For myself ( mine dog) I will defintly want I second opinion if not a third a fourth and so on.
I know it is not surtern until there is a DNA, but vets also make mistake's it will defintly not be the first time there is something they missed specialie when you see the list

.

Groette Martine.

Margo · 09-11-2008, 18:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by loco

And the discussion is mostly about should you shut out all the line off the dog who has epilepsy ??( this is deffently not possible if you want to keep the breed )
Or only the dog ??
Some part off the bloodline ?? if yes untill how far you goes ??

I know how the Belgian Shepherd dog breeders handle with it.... They take out of the breeding all dogs with epilepsy. But because Belgian Teuverens are a breed where genetic factor of the epilepsy is highly suspected many breeders wait till the dogs are 4 yers old before they breed with the dogs (in the most cases the primary form of epilepsy appear before the dog is 4 years old). It is like this by the 'infected' breeds.
So by CzW I think it is enough when will will take out the ill dog... till we have no proves it is 'in the line' and there are no DNA tests for CzWs....

Quote:

Originally Posted by loco

How big is the problem ??

The scientist say the prevalence of epilepsy in every dog population is about 0.5 to 5.7%. So even if we wil have the best tests there will be still 0.5-5.7% of dogs with epilepsy...
And so far I can say by CzW you have much les than the 5%...

So even if the two cases of primary epilepsy you mentioned would be REALLY a primary epilepsy it will make 0.0083% of epileptic CzW.... You see it is even less that the proven minimum...

Quote:

Originally Posted by loco

I do not believe the story of milk or anything like that

but on everything else I have a open mind

.

What seems to be impossible is sometimes possible...

There were so many cases of kidney failure and death of dogs that many companies counted with MILIARDS of dolars which they will have to pay to the owners... Because of the compromise they agreed with "only" 25 millions...

Look on the list - one of the possible reasons for epilepsy is BHA (the same problem can cause BHT and ethoxyquin). All these are antioxidants which are pretty common in the dog food... So it is enough that there are some dogs which get more dog food with BHA or are more susceptible to it and you have another case of dog with epilepsy....

Nebulosa · 09-11-2008, 18:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by loco

oeps sorry.
But I hope that you copypaste the list

.

Back to Topic,

That is mine point exactly, to have peace with "if we can not find anything thene" it will be .......(in this case Primair Epilepsy)

.

For myself ( mine dog) I will defintly want I second opinion if not a third a fourth and so on.
I know it is not surtern until there is a DNA, but vets also make mistake's it will defintly not be the first time there is something they missed specialie when you see the list

.

Groette Martine.

They say it's the primary epilepsy because it's safe. When they not know the cause and have the possibility to be a genetic disease, it's better not uses this dog on reproduction because the risk.
Supose the vet say that this epilepsy may be not genetic, you make a litter and born puppies with the problem, the vet will be guilty because he was irresponsible.

Xhrista · 09-11-2008, 18:35

I think epilepsie (and every other ilniss) is genetic,only the way how is the Question.So you must never breed with A dog that have an ilniss.And look good to the other dogs in the line.Thats the only thing you could do.

Gr. Christa

Nebulosa · 09-11-2008, 18:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xhrista

I think epilepsie (and every other ilniss) is genetic,only the way how is the Question.So you must never breed with A dog that have an ilniss.And look good to the other dogs in the line.Thats the only thing you could do.

Gr. Christa

So, you have a healty dog, this dog receive a strong beat in head by accident, after it he start with seizures time to time and turn in a epileptic dog, this epilepsy will be genetic?!

Really not, this epileptic dog can safelly be used in reproduction and he won't pass the problem, because he not have it in hiis genetic, an accident causes it.

jmvdwiel · 09-11-2008, 19:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nebulosa

So, you have a healty dog, this dog receive a strong beat in head by accident, after it he start with seizures time to time and turn in a epileptic dog, this epilepsy will be genetic?!

Really not, this epileptic dog can safelly be used in reproduction and he won't pass the problem, because he not have it in hiis genetic, an accident causes it.

The question is if someone should want to use this dog, if the dog owner is completely honest about his dog.... I personally would not use this dog... there are enough 'healthy' dogs to use

Margo · 09-11-2008, 19:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by jmvdwiel

there are enough 'healthy' dogs to use

Are you sure the dogs are healthy? And have no epilepsy? Or maybe the owners do not say the truth?

There was one GREAT dog in Czech Republic - hie had secondary epilepsy. He was many time beaten by the owner with metal rod in the head. He was taken away from the owner and had one litter. The dog died as young dog - the damages were too big. In the last time of his life he had seizures... Now there are already 3 generations with blood of this dog in Czech Republic and other countries. Not even one has epilepsy...

No wonder... Stupid owner is really not a genetic based illness....

jmvdwiel · 09-11-2008, 19:52

You wil never know if a dog is completely healthy also not if you get al the information from the owner... but I think it is not wise to use a dog with an ilness that is probably hereditary

Nebulosa · 09-11-2008, 19:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by jmvdwiel

You wil never know if a dog is completely healthy also not if you get al the information from the owner... but I think it is not wise to use a dog with an ilness that is probably hereditary

Yes, but there is the question, you know the dog in this case isn't epileptyc by genetic, but by accident.
I would use without problem if he have interessing line and if I was sure about the truth of the history told by the owner.

jmvdwiel · 09-11-2008, 20:03

what about a dog that is dysplastic and the owner tell's you that he made a slippery on the smooth surface when he was a young dog ...... would you use this dog also?

Nebulosa · 09-11-2008, 20:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by jmvdwiel

what about a dog that is dysplastic and the owner tell's you that he made a slippery on the smooth surface when he was a young dog ...... would you use this dog also?

We're talking about very different illness.
If you beat the head of your dog, he can hurt his brain enought to have epilepsy for the rest of his life, and this surelly won't be genetic.
At moment I really not believe that exists non genetic displasy even proof me the contrary, I never see a case of non-genetic displasy as nor a good explanation to this, a heavy dog wich pass his life slippering in a smoth surface can have articulation problems that can interfere in hip's results giving a worst results, like a B, but not displasy if he not have it genetically, but, if he already be displasic, the results can get really worst, and this will be genetic anyway.

09-11-2008, 16:23	#25
loco Non active. Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Outside, walking the dog. Posts: 2,873	But,.............................this one line in Germany, should this not be known by other breeders ?? Groette Martine. __________________ Just treat stupid situations like a dog.....If you can't play with it or eat it....... Then just piss on it and walk away .

09-11-2008, 16:50	#26
loco Non active. Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Outside, walking the dog. Posts: 2,873	4 Dogs with Epilepsy in Holland which I heard off. One from Poland who has primair epilepsy. One from Holland who has epilepsy but do not know yet, if it is primair or secundair. One from Holland who has primair epilepsy. One from Holland who has secundair because off a other faillure off the body. And the discussion is mostly about should you shut out all the line off the dog who has epilepsy ??( this is deffently not possible if you want to keep the breed ) Or only the dog ?? Some part off the bloodline ?? if yes untill how far you goes ?? How big is the problem ?? Is it wise to make a publiclist with dogs who has it ?? Aso aso aso. Because it just is a disease which is really terrible for the dog but also for the owner. I do not believe the story of milk or anything like that but on everything else I have a open mind . Groette Martine. __________________ Just treat stupid situations like a dog.....If you can't play with it or eat it....... Then just piss on it and walk away .

09-11-2008, 16:57	#27
loco Non active. Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Outside, walking the dog. Posts: 2,873	Sorry forgot . Also the discussion goes. How do you really know when it is primair and secundair we al know what is the diffrent but..................... Should you trust the first veterinair, our should you go for a second opinion ???????? if the first say it is primair!!! Groette Martine. __________________ Just treat stupid situations like a dog.....If you can't play with it or eat it....... Then just piss on it and walk away .

09-11-2008, 17:01	#28
loco Non active. Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Outside, walking the dog. Posts: 2,873	And now it will be very intresting to also know how many cases there are known in Italie, France and the other country in Europe . Groette Martine. __________________ Just treat stupid situations like a dog.....If you can't play with it or eat it....... Then just piss on it and walk away .

09-11-2008, 17:50	#30
loco Non active. Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Outside, walking the dog. Posts: 2,873	oeps sorry. But I hope that you copypaste the list . Back to Topic, That is mine point exactly, to have peace with "if we can not find anything thene" it will be .......(in this case Primair Epilepsy) . For myself ( mine dog) I will defintly want I second opinion if not a third a fourth and so on. I know it is not surtern until there is a DNA, but vets also make mistake's it will defintly not be the first time there is something they missed specialie when you see the list . Groette Martine. __________________ Just treat stupid situations like a dog.....If you can't play with it or eat it....... Then just piss on it and walk away .

09-11-2008, 18:35	#33
Xhrista Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Borssele Posts: 426	I think epilepsie (and every other ilniss) is genetic,only the way how is the Question.So you must never breed with A dog that have an ilniss.And look good to the other dogs in the line.Thats the only thing you could do. Gr. Christa

09-11-2008, 19:52	#37
jmvdwiel Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 1,061	You wil never know if a dog is completely healthy also not if you get al the information from the owner... but I think it is not wise to use a dog with an ilness that is probably hereditary

09-11-2008, 20:03	#39
jmvdwiel Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 1,061	what about a dog that is dysplastic and the owner tell's you that he made a slippery on the smooth surface when he was a young dog ...... would you use this dog also?