Epilepsy and wolfdogs!?

[loco]

At the moment on the Dutch forum this is a Hot topic , and now I heard off several diffrent cases off Epilepsy in the breed of CSW .
I really start to wonder how big is the problem Epilepsy in the breed of the CSW ??

Or is it just as everything else in this breed just a unlucky case on itself.

Hope somebody can give me a honest answer.
Groette Martine.

[Hanka]

Yes, epilepsy is in this breed too. But I know personally only a few dogs in Czech republic (less than is of fingers on one hand)with it.
Important is, don´t breed dogs with this illnes.....It is always the same: in every country breeders need club with working breedcomission

[loco]

Originally Posted by Hanka

Yes, epilepsy is in this breed too. But I know personally only a few dogs in Czech republic (less than is of fingers on one hand)with it.
Important is, don´t breed dogs with this illnes.....It is always the same: in every country breeders need club with working breedcomission

Breedcommision .
Hopefully someday, but then for whole Europe .

But you say, only the dog you must shut out of breeding ??
And every site you find on the internet about epilepsy they say shut out the whole line .
But how you do this in the breed off CSW ??
And if there are just a few in CZ and a few in Holland, how much shall it be in whole of Europe ??

The more I know about epilepsy the more cloudy it gets for me .

Groette Martine.

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

Hi,

in Germany we also have several dogs with epilepsy. You can even trace the lines.
The problem is the breeders most often deny such cases and put even pressure on the owner not to bring it into public.

Michael

[loco]

Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn

Hi,

in Germany we also have several dogs with epilepsy. You can even trace the lines.
Michael

I can not trace it .
Because it is a disease no one wants to talk about.

And if we all keep silence .
Maybe someday, it is as normal as by the malinois.

Groette Martine.

[Xhrista]

Because we not know how epilepsie goes,we must not shut out hole line,because thats make the breed population to small.
Epilepsie is not the only sicknes there is..

Maybe it's posible to make a european list with names of sick dogs on this site?
It's difficult to do it in each country apart,because there is al lot of import from all country's.(and soms coutry's don't have a breeding club of they do nothing with ilness) .So it's better to centralice it.

Only with permission of te owner ofcourse.

Gr. Christa

[jmvdwiel]

In holland there is a very small breed the dutch Schapendoes. They had a severy problem with PRA, al the breeders, owners and the club agreed that this was a big problem. So they did something about it! They found a DNAmarker, so now there are no new PRA dog born anymore, in the future they wil try to get rid of the problem DNA totally.

This is only to tel you what is possible if al breeders work together!
Why not try to make the largest DNA datapool ever ? collect some blood from a lot of CSecloslovakian wolfdog, maybee even try to do it when the puppies are stil at the breeders place. Store the DNA (blood samples) in a special laboratory so it is there whenever there is a reason to look at it.

I hope that something can be done, but than you wil need the cooperation from the breeders and the owners.

greetings Judith

[Margo]

Originally Posted by loco

At the moment on the Dutch forum this is a Hot topic , and now I heard off several diffrent cases off Epilepsy in the breed of CSW .
I really start to wonder how big is the problem Epilepsy in the breed of the CSW ??

The problem is NO. I would even say we get less infromation about such cases by CzW than before... Sure from time to time we get info about ill dog but so far (with the exception of the german case mentionen by Ina) it was not "going in a line".

And we have pretty good overview over the populatins in Czech Republic, Gemany, Poland and Slovakia...

So the Holland case is really an exception - there are more registered cases of epilepsy in Holland than in ALL other countries together. The next problem is - in NL you have dogs imported from different countries, different cases - it means different lines, different genetics BUT ALWAYS the same problem...
So my suggestion is: don't you think in can not be the problem of CzW or genetic reasons for the illness but the problem can be is the country...? I mean it really - maybe there is something what make the country different and what do not 'aapear' in other - what can be the reason for such big amount of epilepsy cases..?

There are different reasons for epilepsy - look on them:

Root Cause Of Seizures In Dogs
* Brain Tumors
* Genetic Factors
* Head Trama
* Hereditary Factors
* Infection, Cysts and Cancer
* Lead, Chemicals, Additives and Poisoning
* Liver Disease
* Low Blood Sugar
* Renal Kidney Failure
* Severe Worm Infestation
* Vaccinations
* Vitamin Deficiencies

Other Factors That May Trigger A Seizure In Dogs
* Abuse or neglect
* Air fresheners
* All toxic flea products
* BHA - a preservative commonly found in dog foods
* BHT- a preservative commonly found in dog foods
* Carpet powders
* Cell Phones
* Cigarette smoke
* Dryer sheets
* Dust
* Eating cat or dog feces
* Ethoxyquin- a preservative commonly found in dog foods
* Excessive exercise
* Fabric softeners
* Fumes from all bathroom cleaners
* Fumes from bleach
* Fumes from dusting products
* Fungi, Bacteria and Germs
* Hair spray
* Heartworm Pills
* Household cleaners, including pine cleaners
* Loud noises
* Low quality canned dog food
* Low quality commercial dog biscuits and treats
* Low quality dry dog food
* Lyme Encephalitis
* Lyme Vaccine
* Mold
* Overheating
* Paint chips from lead based paint
* Paint fumes
* Plastic bowls
* Rabies Vaccine
* Rawhides
* Red food dye- a preservative commonly found in dog foods
* Salt, Sugar, Aspartame, Monosodium Glutamate
* Scented candles
* Sodium Nitrate
* Stress
* Toxic flea collars
* Toxic shampoos and dips
* Vaccinations
* Vitamins with high sodium level

So it would be enough when the vets use specific kind of vaccine or the food producers (some factories produce dog food for differeent companies so you can find the same problem in different kinds of dog food (different labels)) produce food what cause sometimes seizures by some dogs....

It is just a suggestion because if there are more dogs with epilepsy in Holland than in any other country it can be something from this list or... Dutch owners have really bad luck while choosing the puppies...

[loco]

Originally Posted by Margo

I mean it really - maybe there is something what make the country different and what do not 'aapear' in other - what can be the reason for such big amount of epilepsy cases..?
..

Wow, I did not speak over a big amount of cases .
I spoke over several or a few .

And Hanka told there are also a few in CZ, so that is not so diffrent from Holland .
And the other thing I spoke about, that it is a hot topic on the Dutch forum .

Groette Martine.

[Margo]

Originally Posted by loco

Wow, I did not speak over a big amount of cases .
I spoke over several or a few .

And Hanka told there are also a few in CZ, so that is not so diffrent from Holland .

I also do not speak about big amount... If it would be so there will be for sure some official investigations in this case...
I mean more the number of wolfdogs per number the CzW in the specific country...

We have in Poland 150 CzWs and not even one known cases of seizures (and I do not count the official numbers only ). In Germany there are about 500 CzW - it would be interestig how many OTHER cases knows Ina which DO NOT belong to the "ill" line.... I think it will be very few...
In Czech Republic we have over 1000... But it will be very hard do count because the information flow in CZ is worser than in other coutries (it is not possible to keep contact with all the owners).

So I do not mean the are MANY CzW with seizures in NL but that there are more that in other countries... If the topic become HOT TOPIC it means people see there is something wrong....
If the population in NL counts about 240 CzW and there are already some cases (4,5,6..) it is already much more there somewhere else....

I don't attack Dutch people that they do something wrong. I just say that there can be internal problem bif so far it is not possible to trace the lines in NL. Maybe it is really not about the lines but there are other reasons...

I mean something like the problem with the milk in France.
There also famous case in America now - some very famous companies in USA are sued at the moment because they improted rice from China which caused many cases of kidney failure and also cases of poisoning by dogs. Many dogs died because of it... And really very famous dog food marks are involved in it...
For sure many dog owners there started to think the health of some breeds get worser because there are more kindney problems that before...

What I mean - let's say Acana import some poisoned ingredient from China... The "infected" food comes to Poland and in the "epilepsy free" population we will get pretty many cases of epilepsy by CzW... even if the genetic of the breed has nothing to do with it...

[loco]

Originally Posted by Margo

The problem is NO. I would even say we get less infromation about such cases by CzW than before... Sure from time to time we get info about ill dog but so far (with the exception of the german case mentionen by Ina) it was not "going in a line".

And we have pretty good overview over the populatins in Czech Republic, Gemany, Poland and Slovakia...
...

But Thank you for this answer .

[loco]

But,.............................this one line in Germany, should this not be known by other breeders ??

Groette Martine.

[loco]

4 Dogs with Epilepsy in Holland which I heard off.

One from Poland who has primair epilepsy.
One from Holland who has epilepsy but do not know yet, if it is primair or secundair.
One from Holland who has primair epilepsy.
One from Holland who has secundair because off a other faillure off the body.

And the discussion is mostly about should you shut out all the line off the dog who has epilepsy ??( this is deffently not possible if you want to keep the breed )
Or only the dog ??
Some part off the bloodline ?? if yes untill how far you goes ??
How big is the problem ??
Is it wise to make a publiclist with dogs who has it ??
Aso aso aso.
Because it just is a disease which is really terrible for the dog but also for the owner.
I do not believe the story of milk or anything like that but on everything else I have a open mind .

Groette Martine.

[loco]

Sorry forgot .
Also the discussion goes.
How do you really know when it is primair and secundair we al know what is the diffrent but.....................
Should you trust the first veterinair, our should you go for a second opinion ???????? if the first say it is primair!!!

Groette Martine.

[loco]

And now it will be very intresting to also know how many cases there are known in Italie, France and the other country in Europe .

Groette Martine.

[Margo]

Originally Posted by loco

How do you really know when it is primair and secundair we al know what is the diffrent but.....................
Should you trust the first veterinair, our should you go for a second opinion ???????? if the first say it is primair!!!

Primary epilepsy is a genetic based inheritated type of epilepsy. So far there are NO diagnostics which can make the vet sure it is exactly such type...
Allthe vet can do is to rule out all other possibilities. So it means it is primar GENETIC epilepsy when it is not caused by:

* Brain Tumors
* Head Trama
* Infection, Cysts and Cancer
* Lead, Chemicals, Additives and Poisoning
* Liver Disease
* Low Blood Sugar
* Renal Kidney Failure
* Severe Worm Infestation
* Vaccinations
* Vitamin Deficiencies
* Abuse or neglect
* Air fresheners
* All toxic flea products
* BHA - a preservative commonly found in dog foods
* BHT- a preservative commonly found in dog foods
* Carpet powders
* Cell Phones
* Cigarette smoke
* Dryer sheets
* Dust
* Eating cat or dog feces
* Ethoxyquin- a preservative commonly found in dog foods
* Excessive exercise
* Fabric softeners
* Fumes from all bathroom cleaners
* Fumes from bleach
* Fumes from dusting products
* Fungi, Bacteria and Germs
* Hair spray
* Heartworm Pills
* Household cleaners, including pine cleaners
* Loud noises
* Low quality canned dog food
* Low quality commercial dog biscuits and treats
* Low quality dry dog food
* Lyme Encephalitis
* Lyme Vaccine
* Mold
* Overheating
* Paint chips from lead based paint
* Paint fumes
* Plastic bowls
* Rabies Vaccine
* Rawhides
* Red food dye- a preservative commonly found in dog foods
* Salt, Sugar, Aspartame, Monosodium Glutamate
* Scented candles
* Sodium Nitrate
* Stress
* Toxic flea collars
* Toxic shampoos and dips
* Vaccinations
* Vitamins with high sodium level

So much theory... And the reality is: the vets are saying it is primar when they do not find the reason for it... You see it is simple not possible to rule out all the possible reasons... So all they make are more or less tests (blood, usg, aso...) - in the most cases they check ONLY the blood... and done... for them it is primar...

But to be honest - when you see this list a vet can NEVER say it is primar - till there will be no DNA tests...

[Margo]

Originally Posted by loco

And the discussion is mostly about should you shut out all the line off the dog who has epilepsy ??( this is deffently not possible if you want to keep the breed )
Or only the dog ??
Some part off the bloodline ?? if yes untill how far you goes ??

I know how the Belgian Shepherd dog breeders handle with it.... They take out of the breeding all dogs with epilepsy. But because Belgian Teuverens are a breed where genetic factor of the epilepsy is highly suspected many breeders wait till the dogs are 4 yers old before they breed with the dogs (in the most cases the primary form of epilepsy appear before the dog is 4 years old). It is like this by the 'infected' breeds.
So by CzW I think it is enough when will will take out the ill dog... till we have no proves it is 'in the line' and there are no DNA tests for CzWs....

Originally Posted by loco

How big is the problem ??

The scientist say the prevalence of epilepsy in every dog population is about 0.5 to 5.7%. So even if we wil have the best tests there will be still 0.5-5.7% of dogs with epilepsy...
And so far I can say by CzW you have much les than the 5%...

So even if the two cases of primary epilepsy you mentioned would be REALLY a primary epilepsy it will make 0.0083% of epileptic CzW.... You see it is even less that the proven minimum...

Originally Posted by loco

I do not believe the story of milk or anything like that but on everything else I have a open mind .

What seems to be impossible is sometimes possible... There were so many cases of kidney failure and death of dogs that many companies counted with MILIARDS of dolars which they will have to pay to the owners... Because of the compromise they agreed with "only" 25 millions...

Look on the list - one of the possible reasons for epilepsy is BHA (the same problem can cause BHT and ethoxyquin). All these are antioxidants which are pretty common in the dog food... So it is enough that there are some dogs which get more dog food with BHA or are more susceptible to it and you have another case of dog with epilepsy....

[elf]

Omega 3 supplementation may help your epileptic dog.


"Epilepsy Behav. 2009 Aug;15(4):527-8. Epub 2009 Jun 21.

Positive impact of omega-3 fatty acid supplementation in a dog with drug-resistant epilepsy: a case study.

Scorza FA, Cavalheiro EA, Arida RM, Terra VC, Scorza CA, Ribeiro MO, Cysneiros RM.

Disciplina de Neurologia Experimental, Universidade Federal de São Paulo/Escola Paulista de Medicina (UNIFESP/EPM), São Paulo, Brazil. [email protected]
Abstract

Epilepsy is the most common neurological disorder in both dogs and humans. Although the pharmacological options for treatment of epilepsies have increased, it has been reported that two-thirds of dogs with epilepsy are refractory to antiepileptic drug therapy. To our knowledge, there are no experimental studies in the literature that show an effect of omega-3 supplementation on epilepsy in dogs. Our case study describes the effectiveness of daily intake of a moderate amount of fish oil in a case of canine epilepsy."

[elf]

Originally Posted by elf

Omega 3 supplementation may help your epileptic dog.


"Epilepsy Behav. 2009 Aug;15(4):527-8. Epub 2009 Jun 21.

Positive impact of omega-3 fatty acid supplementation in a dog with drug-resistant epilepsy: a case study.

Scorza FA, Cavalheiro EA, Arida RM, Terra VC, Scorza CA, Ribeiro MO, Cysneiros RM.

Disciplina de Neurologia Experimental, Universidade Federal de São Paulo/Escola Paulista de Medicina (UNIFESP/EPM), São Paulo, Brazil. [email protected]
Abstract

Epilepsy is the most common neurological disorder in both dogs and humans. Although the pharmacological options for treatment of epilepsies have increased, it has been reported that two-thirds of dogs with epilepsy are refractory to antiepileptic drug therapy. To our knowledge, there are no experimental studies in the literature that show an effect of omega-3 supplementation on epilepsy in dogs. Our case study describes the effectiveness of daily intake of a moderate amount of fish oil in a case of canine epilepsy."

Here are given quantities:

fish oil (oral omega-3 polyunsaturated fatty acids, 2 g/day)

Extract:

A 2-year-old female Great Dane with a history of recurrent seizures
was brought to a veterinary neurologist. Tonic–clonic seizures
occurred at a frequency of three times per month and were
characterized by facial automatisms, forelimb clonus, rearing and
falling, and loss of consciousness. After a detailed physical and neurological
examination, evaluation of hematology and serum biochemistry,
and magnetic resonance imaging of the brain, the
veterinarian diagnosed the condition as idiopathic epilepsy and began
treatment aimed at seizure control. A trial therapy with phenobarbital
(2.5 mg/kg, twice a day orally) failed to adequately control
the seizures: after 8 weeks of treatment there remained two seizure
episodes per month. Typically, potassium bromide is used to
supplement phenobarbital in refractory cases. However, in this
case, it was decided to supplement the dog’s diet with moderate
amounts of fish oil (oral omega-3 polyunsaturated fatty acids,
2 g/day). The frequency of the epileptic seizures markedly fell after
50 days of combination therapy with phenobarbital and omega-3
fatty acid. During the subsequent 18-month period, seizure frequency
fell to one per 3 months, a reduction of about 85%.