Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs-Australia

Ligerwolve2 · 12-12-2012, 01:10

Last time I looked the sire and therefore your dogs are listed as possible crosses.

Ligerwolve2 · 12-12-2012, 01:15

http://www.wolfdog.org/site/fr/dbase/d/14944

12-12-2012, 01:21

Once again I see you've decided to ignore the fact you lied. I also see you've reverted to being immature and repeating your exact same comment, completely ignoring the fact that you can see registrations on the database.

The sire was not registered, neither was one of his parents but after that, all are registered. If you'd looked you would of seen VDH numbers. Seriously how do you think a dog is a mix, when both parents are registered?

I simply brought up your dog to show the credibility of someone like you, who's questioning my dog. But if you want me to create a separate thread for it, I'll do it, what should I call it? Ligerwolve2's "Czechoslovakian Shepherd"?

Ligerwolve2 · 12-12-2012, 03:39

What do you mean "both" parents are registered but then both sire and grandsire are non registered?

Sorry you lose me here.

You brought up my dog to redirect. My dogs and myself have nothing to do with you, the breeder and the dogs involved. I find it quite amusing you have reduced yourself to the level of personal attacks because I dared to ask questions. I think its something you will have to get used to.

I wouldnt get angry about it. You have two dogs you love dont you? So why not be happy and honest and just explain? You will never get people to look at them as pedigree without papers. Pure ... maybe. I think that depends on the information offered.

Like I actually said on DOL I dont know the dogs involved only quoted other people more in the know. I said I was not sure what the truth is. The only thing you can accuse me of is not liking the lack of information coming from the breeder.

How many of us would be suspicious of a breeder who would not answer questions? Rings alarm bells for me and Ive said as much ALWAYS adding that its purely my opinion and without further information I cant say more.

If you would like I will go back there right now and clarify using the information you gave me that the bitch is FCI registered but the male is not and therefore all pups are not. Happy to do it. Im happy to pass on anything else you would like too. Infact why dont you go and introduce yourself?

I dont know why you want to drag up my dog. If I was trying to buy a pup sure there would be grounds to ask how much experience I have. If I was talking about what CzW are like from my experience....well I havent own one yet and freely admit as such. Ive only ever talked about what my dog was like for me. I never bred her, showed her or anything else that requires me to prove anything. If I did breed her Id expect people to ask.

You can start what ever topic you like. Thats between you and the Mods.

12-12-2012, 04:25

When I say both parents, im not refering to my dogs. I'm referring to Esaya, who was the first non registered dog in the pedigree, but both her parents were registered. Now I'm fully aware that many in the purebred world would classify a dog as a cross, just because it's not registered, even if both the parents are. But genetically that's false, and as far as I'm concerned it's stupid. From a genetic point of view, pure breeding has nothing to do registering, some people need to understand that.

Name calling? I've haven't said anything without reason. Bringing up your dogs wasn't a distraction. I'm within my rights to question you, when you've constantly being questioning me.

Now originally I was debating the purity of my dogs. You've come and tried to change the subject to the practises of their breeder. As I've said, everything was done properly. But if you would like to ask the breeder go ahead, don't ask me because I don't care. My dogs are fit, healthy and happy and that's what matters to me in the end of the day, not wether the breeder was registered with the FCI or not. I came back to post some pics, give my reasons for them being pure and prove some people's ignorant (i feel like i have to use that word a lot here) speculations wrong.

I was joking about creating the thread, I don't have the time nor the concern to. But I don't understand why you're so private about it. I've already given my reasons to why they're is no such thing as a Czechoslovakian Shepherd, so lets leave it there.

Ligerwolve2 · 12-12-2012, 14:03

Thats your reasoning. Fully understandable. The reason people who are passionate about dogs will be skeptical like myself is that when there is no registration the breeder themself has filled in the pedigree and thats all there is. No outside unbiased body. So someone who is dodgey would say yes they are pure when infact they did not register the litter is the sire was a different dog.

I know this isnt perfect. I know there are other ways to register and keep pure lines BUT when someone does it, questions are raised.

You have made personal attacks, you did not need to do when exlaining your reasons would have sufficed. Im questioning this litter and its parents as I think the truth here is important. Lay the card out on the table and let people make informed choices. Your questioning of my dog is off topic.

My first post was to the breeder and I think I made that clear. I question you about your dogs because like it or not you are an ambassador to the breed. I think its something you are going to find happens alot. Will you question every person the way you have me if they ask you some of the basic questions.

I have also questioned the way the breed is being introduced here. Im passionate about the breed and want whats best so yes I will question.

Photos give us a clue not proof of anything. To have proof you need one of two things neither of which you are interested in. Which is fine, you just wanted pets. The breeder I still think would be best to think about this if they want to continue to have more litters.

The only thing really clear is that the male and pups are not registered. I personally would like some more information. Why were the original dogs not registered. What was the breeders reasoning?

What is the breeder of these pups doing? Will they be breeding more? Are they being ethical? Is this damaging for the breed here?

I just honestly want to know what is going on. No judgements. I just would like to have that information.

YOU dont have to answer my questions. Other people are allowed to speak up. Besides I do not think you have any interest in my last few questions BUT you could give your exerience with them.

I would like to know why people think the breeder uses a cross?

Thats your opinion. You can have it. Its not mine, nor the people who work with them, nor that of the people who have met her.

Ligerwolve2 · 12-12-2012, 14:11

Going back and reading over my first posts I think I was nothing but polite to you and said a few times I was not saying if they were pure or not.

However there is a question I asked that I am genuinely ineterested in. IF you would answer of your own experience, please.

Were you shown or recieved copies of the health tests recommended for the breed, from the parents?

Im not asking to insult you or anyone else Id just like to know.

michaelundinaeichhorn · 12-12-2012, 15:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ligerwolve2

I would like to know why people think the breeder uses a cross?

.

We know that from betrayed puppybuyers and from advertisements the breeder made herself:
http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/showthr...+spirit&page=2
http://www.dhd24.com/archiv/index.ph...t=raven+spirit

I am sorry it is on German but I don´t have the time to translate and I am not responsible for the dogs anyway.
She sold a lot of people dogs as purebreds that weren´t and she seems to have made a crossing between daughter and father as well.
Even IF the male is from the Dünnerntal ancestor , Dünnerntal belongs to Roland Homberger who has been thrown out of the German Kennelclub long time ago, shows up every now and then and dissapears again owing money and abandoning dogs. The Dünnerntal ancestor was born by a mother that has been bred in the age of 10 month. This is one of the very few things that are likely to be true. Shortly after Homberger dissapeared again leaving a very young women with a very small child and a lot of not very well fed dogs of doubtfull but not purebred origin.

http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/showthr...land+homberger

IF this puppy found it´s way to Raven Spirit and IF it is the mother of the dog, they might be purebred but from parents without healthtests. And as the only other dog with prooven origin anybody knows of Raven Spirit owned, is one male of Spirit of the Wolf (called by her Fenris) that was used for every litter we know also that the mothers are mixed and as written before we know this from puppybuyers that have been there.

Fact is, that neither Raven Spirit nor vom Dünnernthal can be trusted with anything nor did they undergo any controles by officials, but by themself have advertised mixes with TWHs several times.

So no responsible breeder would use them as a founding stock for a breed newly introduced in a country.

Ina

12-12-2012, 23:54

Ina, you've allowed the possibility that they're pure. Now from what you're saying, the Dunnernthal breeder may not be very reputable. But that's not any evidence to say that my dogs aren't pure, and so far no one has provided evidence, everyone's opinions have just been based on speculations about the breeder.

I just like to point out that Czw here in Australia aren't being used to establish the breed. The breeder probably isn't going to be breeding again. But what these czw have done, is develope a wide interest and admiration in the breed. I even know people who are now considering importing czws, as they can no longer buy any in Australia. The most damaging thing to the breed in Australia, has been the attitudes on this thread, rather than any constructive comments, it has been an attack on the Australian breeder. I'm very greatful for the expense that the Australian breeder has gone to, to bring these beautiful dogs here, and I'm disappointed in the unfair criticism on these forums.

As I said the intention wasn't to establish the breed here, I'd like to remind you it would be impossible to establish a breed fully in a new country with only one breeding pair. But what has been done is establish wonderful ambassadors for the breed, for when people do import and establish a Czechoslovakian Wolfdog kennel here.

Ligerwolve, you appear to be forgetting who started this thread. I did.
The title is Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs Australia. It is in no way related to my dogs in particular, I started this thread long before they were born. Therefore my dogs aren't the point of discussion of this thread, sorry I decided the point of discussion here, not you.

You claim to of owned a "wolfdog" that has "Czechoslovakian Wolfdog" in it and called her a "Czechoslovakian Shepherd". Given my title, your dog is most definitely able to be questioned here. Where's the papers? Where's the photos? Where's the genetic test results? I want to see the proof of Czw in them.

Sorry, your attempts to deflect my questions won't work here anymore.

Ligerwolve2 · 13-12-2012, 12:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn

We know that from betrayed puppybuyers and from advertisements the breeder made herself:
http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/showthr...+spirit&page=2
http://www.dhd24.com/archiv/index.ph...t=raven+spirit

I am sorry it is on German but I don´t have the time to translate and I am not responsible for the dogs anyway.
She sold a lot of people dogs as purebreds that weren´t and she seems to have made a crossing between daughter and father as well.
Even IF the male is from the Dünnerntal ancestor , Dünnerntal belongs to Roland Homberger who has been thrown out of the German Kennelclub long time ago, shows up every now and then and dissapears again owing money and abandoning dogs. The Dünnerntal ancestor was born by a mother that has been bred in the age of 10 month. This is one of the very few things that are likely to be true. Shortly after Homberger dissapeared again leaving a very young women with a very small child and a lot of not very well fed dogs of doubtfull but not purebred origin.

http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/showthr...land+homberger

IF this puppy found it´s way to Raven Spirit and IF it is the mother of the dog, they might be purebred but from parents without healthtests. And as the only other dog with prooven origin anybody knows of Raven Spirit owned, is one male of Spirit of the Wolf (called by her Fenris) that was used for every litter we know also that the mothers are mixed and as written before we know this from puppybuyers that have been there.

Fact is, that neither Raven Spirit nor vom Dünnernthal can be trusted with anything nor did they undergo any controles by officials, but by themself have advertised mixes with TWHs several times.

So no responsible breeder would use them as a founding stock for a breed newly introduced in a country.

Ina

Sorry I forgot to thank you for posting that. I will be having a good read when I get the chance.

Wolves you can harp on all you like Im not explaining my dog anymore to you.

My credability is fine

Im a registered breeder and worked in the animal industry a long time. Im afraid that although your opinion is not good I do just fine thanks

I asked you if your dogs parents had any health tests done. You didnt answer but I do know that your pups are too young at this time to have proper gradings done.

Also Id really like it if you stopped putting words in my mouth. I said a while ago that the "parents" were in question. I never said that either dog was a cross only that there was speculation. Which at the time there was talk on here of the "parents" not being pure. You like to leave out the bit where I said that I just had warning bells going off for me and that people should do their own digging. I also went back later and said it was the sire and grandsire. So you have no case there Im afraid but good luck

You can rant all you like but you cant force me to discuss anything. Perhaps if you were polite Id be inclined. What a breeder thinks is between them and me. Id happily link them to the variety of photos if they wanted. I would show them papers if they needed. However I would assume they would treat me like any novice since I have not owned a CzW. Anyway thats a long way off and Im not concerned. Any breeders who do come here will probably get a chance to meet me anyway if they exhibit their dogs.

Personally Id like to see the quarantine reduced to 10 days instead of 30 first. Crossing all fingers that happens as it will certainly be better for any dogs arriving here.

12-12-2012, 01:21	#3
Wolves Guest Posts: n/a	Once again I see you've decided to ignore the fact you lied. I also see you've reverted to being immature and repeating your exact same comment, completely ignoring the fact that you can see registrations on the database. The sire was not registered, neither was one of his parents but after that, all are registered. If you'd looked you would of seen VDH numbers. Seriously how do you think a dog is a mix, when both parents are registered? I simply brought up your dog to show the credibility of someone like you, who's questioning my dog. But if you want me to create a separate thread for it, I'll do it, what should I call it? Ligerwolve2's "Czechoslovakian Shepherd"? Last edited by Wolves; 12-12-2012 at 01:27.

12-12-2012, 04:25	#5
Wolves Guest Posts: n/a	When I say both parents, im not refering to my dogs. I'm referring to Esaya, who was the first non registered dog in the pedigree, but both her parents were registered. Now I'm fully aware that many in the purebred world would classify a dog as a cross, just because it's not registered, even if both the parents are. But genetically that's false, and as far as I'm concerned it's stupid. From a genetic point of view, pure breeding has nothing to do registering, some people need to understand that. Name calling? I've haven't said anything without reason. Bringing up your dogs wasn't a distraction. I'm within my rights to question you, when you've constantly being questioning me. Now originally I was debating the purity of my dogs. You've come and tried to change the subject to the practises of their breeder. As I've said, everything was done properly. But if you would like to ask the breeder go ahead, don't ask me because I don't care. My dogs are fit, healthy and happy and that's what matters to me in the end of the day, not wether the breeder was registered with the FCI or not. I came back to post some pics, give my reasons for them being pure and prove some people's ignorant (i feel like i have to use that word a lot here) speculations wrong. I was joking about creating the thread, I don't have the time nor the concern to. But I don't understand why you're so private about it. I've already given my reasons to why they're is no such thing as a Czechoslovakian Shepherd, so lets leave it there. Last edited by Wolves; 12-12-2012 at 04:28.

12-12-2012, 01:10	#1
Ligerwolve2 Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 57	Last time I looked the sire and therefore your dogs are listed as possible crosses.

12-12-2012, 01:15	#2
Ligerwolve2 Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 57	http://www.wolfdog.org/site/fr/dbase/d/14944

12-12-2012, 03:39	#4
Ligerwolve2 Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 57	What do you mean "both" parents are registered but then both sire and grandsire are non registered? Sorry you lose me here. You brought up my dog to redirect. My dogs and myself have nothing to do with you, the breeder and the dogs involved. I find it quite amusing you have reduced yourself to the level of personal attacks because I dared to ask questions. I think its something you will have to get used to. I wouldnt get angry about it. You have two dogs you love dont you? So why not be happy and honest and just explain? You will never get people to look at them as pedigree without papers. Pure ... maybe. I think that depends on the information offered. Like I actually said on DOL I dont know the dogs involved only quoted other people more in the know. I said I was not sure what the truth is. The only thing you can accuse me of is not liking the lack of information coming from the breeder. How many of us would be suspicious of a breeder who would not answer questions? Rings alarm bells for me and Ive said as much ALWAYS adding that its purely my opinion and without further information I cant say more. If you would like I will go back there right now and clarify using the information you gave me that the bitch is FCI registered but the male is not and therefore all pups are not. Happy to do it. Im happy to pass on anything else you would like too. Infact why dont you go and introduce yourself? I dont know why you want to drag up my dog. If I was trying to buy a pup sure there would be grounds to ask how much experience I have. If I was talking about what CzW are like from my experience....well I havent own one yet and freely admit as such. Ive only ever talked about what my dog was like for me. I never bred her, showed her or anything else that requires me to prove anything. If I did breed her Id expect people to ask. You can start what ever topic you like. Thats between you and the Mods.

12-12-2012, 14:03	#6
Ligerwolve2 Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 57	Thats your reasoning. Fully understandable. The reason people who are passionate about dogs will be skeptical like myself is that when there is no registration the breeder themself has filled in the pedigree and thats all there is. No outside unbiased body. So someone who is dodgey would say yes they are pure when infact they did not register the litter is the sire was a different dog. I know this isnt perfect. I know there are other ways to register and keep pure lines BUT when someone does it, questions are raised. You have made personal attacks, you did not need to do when exlaining your reasons would have sufficed. Im questioning this litter and its parents as I think the truth here is important. Lay the card out on the table and let people make informed choices. Your questioning of my dog is off topic. My first post was to the breeder and I think I made that clear. I question you about your dogs because like it or not you are an ambassador to the breed. I think its something you are going to find happens alot. Will you question every person the way you have me if they ask you some of the basic questions. I have also questioned the way the breed is being introduced here. Im passionate about the breed and want whats best so yes I will question. Photos give us a clue not proof of anything. To have proof you need one of two things neither of which you are interested in. Which is fine, you just wanted pets. The breeder I still think would be best to think about this if they want to continue to have more litters. The only thing really clear is that the male and pups are not registered. I personally would like some more information. Why were the original dogs not registered. What was the breeders reasoning? What is the breeder of these pups doing? Will they be breeding more? Are they being ethical? Is this damaging for the breed here? I just honestly want to know what is going on. No judgements. I just would like to have that information. YOU dont have to answer my questions. Other people are allowed to speak up. Besides I do not think you have any interest in my last few questions BUT you could give your exerience with them. I would like to know why people think the breeder uses a cross? Thats your opinion. You can have it. Its not mine, nor the people who work with them, nor that of the people who have met her.

12-12-2012, 14:11	#7
Ligerwolve2 Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 57	Going back and reading over my first posts I think I was nothing but polite to you and said a few times I was not saying if they were pure or not. However there is a question I asked that I am genuinely ineterested in. IF you would answer of your own experience, please. Were you shown or recieved copies of the health tests recommended for the breed, from the parents? Im not asking to insult you or anyone else Id just like to know.

12-12-2012, 23:54	#9
Wolves Guest Posts: n/a	Ina, you've allowed the possibility that they're pure. Now from what you're saying, the Dunnernthal breeder may not be very reputable. But that's not any evidence to say that my dogs aren't pure, and so far no one has provided evidence, everyone's opinions have just been based on speculations about the breeder. I just like to point out that Czw here in Australia aren't being used to establish the breed. The breeder probably isn't going to be breeding again. But what these czw have done, is develope a wide interest and admiration in the breed. I even know people who are now considering importing czws, as they can no longer buy any in Australia. The most damaging thing to the breed in Australia, has been the attitudes on this thread, rather than any constructive comments, it has been an attack on the Australian breeder. I'm very greatful for the expense that the Australian breeder has gone to, to bring these beautiful dogs here, and I'm disappointed in the unfair criticism on these forums. As I said the intention wasn't to establish the breed here, I'd like to remind you it would be impossible to establish a breed fully in a new country with only one breeding pair. But what has been done is establish wonderful ambassadors for the breed, for when people do import and establish a Czechoslovakian Wolfdog kennel here. Ligerwolve, you appear to be forgetting who started this thread. I did. The title is Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs Australia. It is in no way related to my dogs in particular, I started this thread long before they were born. Therefore my dogs aren't the point of discussion of this thread, sorry I decided the point of discussion here, not you. You claim to of owned a "wolfdog" that has "Czechoslovakian Wolfdog" in it and called her a "Czechoslovakian Shepherd". Given my title, your dog is most definitely able to be questioned here. Where's the papers? Where's the photos? Where's the genetic test results? I want to see the proof of Czw in them. Sorry, your attempts to deflect my questions won't work here anymore.