Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs-Australia

[Sona_Bognarova]

Good morning, yes, of course it is MY perception, whose else? I am presenting my point of view, as everyone else here. And this view IS based on my experience in Australia and what I can read here. And I used "Australia is not ready" as a figure of speech based on what I can see everyday, what people expect from dogs here and also on that immediate interest in the pups, no matter the origin. I think it is pretty clear that I did not talk in absolute terms. As Ina mentioned, it could have happened that the dogs were imported with the best intention and not knowing the background but after getting the information about the origin being unclear - why breeding? The fact that the pups look like CSW does not mean much. I really don't desire to start quarrels here. I would rather help those who dedicate all the efforts, time and funds to import pure CSWs in Australia and do their best to establish a good breeding base. At present I can't do it myself and I am getting a bit scared to see people shortcutting already (the dogs are here already, ok, questionable origin but there is not proof - let's breed, it's soo easy!). The dog breeders community and environment here in Australia in general looks to me very different to the one in Europe. It is more enclosed, not very welcoming for new people, let alone just fans and viewers, this atmosphere and the distances make new owners more separated. In general, people accept mixes of all kind much easier. And don't get me wrong here, there is nothing wrong with having a cross, any kind, might be the best companion ever. But for introducing a new breed, a good breeding base with reliable origin/background is essential. Establishing a well working community of CSW owners, developing into a breeders club sooner or later is another very important step - a club is not only a bunch of people meeting once in a while to have fun together (although that is one of very positive sides of a club life...), it is first of all the source of help and information, leadership and up the certain level also a warranty that the breed will be presented to public in the best ways - through the breeding selection, education of the new owners, publicity etc. Clubs will deal with and promote the pure individuals only. So what will happen with those where the origin is questionable? What else would they possibly cross with? Experimenting? Good, why not, but if anything goes wrong, it can result in lots of bans of the whole breed/s. CSW are not easy, we all know it (and love them for it!) and the pressure and restrictions are getting worse. Is that what we want to risk? Getting CSW banned before it could get known and popular here? Once again, there is plenty of reliable information about the breed and breeders in Europe and I believe also many breeders who wouldn't hesitate to help Australians who would like to start with CSW the right way. Although it is also competitive field, there are breeders that would even advise you to buy from different breeder, should they see it more suitable for establishing a new breeding base. I strongly recommend to everyone in Australia who is serious about having a CSW to get as much information upfront as possible, be patient and make a wise choice. A good breeder will give you pros as well as cons of the breed, it is good to know what you are going to deal with...:-) Good luck

[Shadowlands]

Great post Sona - and you could be describing the situation in the UK too. Too many people in for making what they can with dogs or questionable lineage/temperament without a care for the furtherment (is that a word??) of the breed...

The fact that the the whole entire littler looks like Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs, can only mean one thing, they're pure. On genetic principals if they were mix bred there would be variation in the litter.

Facts are people have been trying to make out that anyone involved with these particular dogs are irresponsible, because you don't believe they're pure. But no one has provided proof.

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

Originally Posted by Wolves

The fact that the the whole entire littler looks like Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs, can only mean one thing, they're pure. On genetic principals if they were mix bred there would be variation in the litter.

Facts are people have been trying to make out that anyone involved with these particular dogs are irresponsible, because you don't believe they're pure. But no one has provided proof.

Sorry but this only shows you know nothing at all about the materia and not very much about genetics and breeds.
Apart of this the two pups show a high variation. Maybe you should go and ask the breeder of Aargon Spirit of the Wolf what she thinks about the matter. I for example have never seen a pup out of this line with a bad mask.
White Shepherds don´t have the silly back of the normal ones, they are mostly lighter build, they are not supposed to have pink noses and where should the shyness come from crossing a shepherd with a CSV?
If a breeder only has one purebred dog but doesn´t use a dog from outside how is it gonna happen he can produce purebreds??
If the parents are purebreds which kennelclub signed the pedigrees?
And how do they look like? Which organisations have done the HD- and eyes-check on the parents of your couple? When did the parents of your couple get the official ok for breeding.
Sona is so very right.

Ina

Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn

Sorry but this only shows you know nothing at all about the materia and not very much about genetics and breeds.
Apart of this the two pups show a high variation. Maybe you should go and ask the breeder of Aargon Spirit of the Wolf what she thinks about the matter. I for example have never seen a pup out of this line with a bad mask.
White Shepherds don´t have the silly back of the normal ones, they are mostly lighter build, they are not supposed to have pink noses and where should the shyness come from crossing a shepherd with a CSV?
If a breeder only has one purebred dog but doesn´t use a dog from outside how is it gonna happen he can produce purebreds??
If the parents are purebreds which kennelclub signed the pedigrees?
And how do they look like? Which organisations have done the HD- and eyes-check on the parents of your couple? When did the parents of your couple get the official ok for breeding.
Sona is so very right.

Ina

What are your qualifications in genetics?

"Apart from this the two pups show a high variation" type "Czechoslovakian Wolfdog" into google and you will see Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs with high variation as well, but like my male and female pups you can identify them as Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs. The variation I was referring to is in mixed breed pups, some pups will lean towards Czechoslovakian Wolfdog, other pups will lean towards White Shepherds (or what ever they're mixed with).

"White Shepherds don´t have the silly back of the normal ones, they are mostly lighter build, they are not supposed to have pink noses and where should the shyness come from crossing a shepherd with a CSV?" Can't you see I put that statement in quotes?! I was quoting what someone else said my pups could possibly have, so tell that to them. Read the thread.

"If a breeder only has one purebred dog but doesn´t use a dog from outside how is it gonna happen he can produce purebreds??" Have you even seen the pedigree? because if you have, you would know that their lineage isn't all Ravens Spirit.

Just because a dog isn't registered with a particular organisation does not mean the dog isn't pure. Rest assured our dogs have been health checked, and don't exhibit HD or eye problems.

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

Originally Posted by Wolves

What are your qualifications in genetics? .

I passed the last exams for veterinary surgeon 1998 and work in small animals ever since. This exam includes animal breeding with of course genetics. To get there I had to get degrees in Zoology and Biochemistry.
I own wolfdogs since 1997, breed them since 2000, have a FCI/VDH kennel called Zlata Palz, have visited the countries of origin inclusiv the club shows, bonitations and summer camps since 1998. I have assisted on several Bonitations, have organized several Club shows, am one of the founders of the first German Club and at the moment one of the heads.

Sona by the way has studied Biology, been involved in the breeding since decades and is a specialized judge for Bonitations and Shows of the Slowakian Club for CSV.

Originally Posted by Wolves

"Apart from this the two pups show a high variation" type "Czechoslovakian Wolfdog" into google and you will see Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs with high variation as well, but like my male and female pups you can identify them as Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs. The variation I was referring to is in mixed breed pups, some pups will lean towards Czechoslovakian Wolfdog, other pups will lean towards White Shepherds (or what ever they're mixed with). .

If you mix a part CSV with a pure CSV it is not very likely you will find White Shepherd like dogs in the first generations, especially as dark color normally is dominant and the exterieur is so very close. Also the White Shepherds have their origin in the normal German Shepherd. And I don´´t need to google them as I know several hundreds in life.

Originally Posted by Wolves

"If a breeder only has one purebred dog but doesn´t use a dog from outside how is it gonna happen he can produce purebreds??" Have you even seen the pedigree? because if you have, you would know that their lineage isn't all Ravens Spirit.

Just because a dog isn't registered with a particular organisation does not mean the dog isn't pure. Rest assured our dogs have been health checked, and don't exhibit HD or eye problems.

I know their lineage isn´t all Ravens Spirit. In Germany breeding without pedigree on purpose is a reliable sign for people that don´t want to undergo the controles of the German Kennel Club and follow the rules and there are quite a lot, like controles of HD and inherited eye disease and home and knowlege of the breeder.
The German kennel club also would have asked for proofe of the parentage in this case at it is well known in Germany that they cannot be pure.
But this is goona be a little bit silly, breeding is something very different to what Ravens Spirit or you are doing.

Ina

Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn

I passed the last exams for veterinary surgeon 1998 and work in small animals ever since. This exam includes animal breeding with of course genetics. To get there I had to get degrees in Zoology and Biochemistry.
I own wolfdogs since 1997, breed them since 2000, have a FCI/VDH kennel called Zlata Palz, have visited the countries of origin inclusiv the club shows, bonitations and summer camps since 1998. I have assisted on several Bonitations, have organized several Club shows, am one of the founders of the first German Club and at the moment one of the heads.

Sona by the way has studied Biology, been involved in the breeding since decades and is a specialized judge for Bonitations and Shows of the Slowakian Club for CSV.

If you mix a part CSV with a pure CSV it is not very likely you will find White Shepherd like dogs in the first generations, especially as dark color normally is dominant and the exterieur is so very close. Also the White Shepherds have their origin in the normal German Shepherd. And I don´´t need to google them as I know several hundreds in life.


I know their lineage isn´t all Ravens Spirit. In Germany breeding without pedigree on purpose is a reliable sign for people that don´t want to undergo the controles of the German Kennel Club and follow the rules and there are quite a lot, like controles of HD and inherited eye disease and home and knowlege of the breeder.
The German kennel club also would have asked for proofe of the parentage in this case at it is well known in Germany that they cannot be pure.
But this is goona be a little bit silly, breeding is something very different to what Ravens Spirit or you are doing.

Ina

Ok, we'll let's see. One, my generation of pups is at least f3, so you clearly haven't even being reading the thread. So given they're f3, if there was white shepherd in them, you would definitely be seeing that in some of the litter.

Another thing, look at eyes for example. Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs eyes range from amber to brown. White Shepherds have brown eyes. Brown eyes are dominant. Therefore how can you get multiple pups in the f3 generation showing amber eyes, when both the f2 generation had brown eyes? All it means is the f2 must of being carrying amber eyes, from the Czechoslovakian Wolfdog. If there was a white shepherd in there, it would be highly unlikely that you would get amber eyed pups, given brown is dominant and amber only comes from the Czechoslovakian Wolfdog.

Well given you've seen hundreds of Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs, surely you'd understand that there is a large amount of variation in them. My two do not have all that much, apart from being different genders of course.

They do have a pedigree, so what do you mean by "breeding without pedigree on purpose?"

"breeding is something very different to what Ravens Spirit or you are doing." Ignorance again, I'm not breeding I've made it very clear. My two pups are desexed. Read before you make these statements. Secondly, so you're an expert on Ravens Spirit? Mind sending me some pictures of the White Shepherd mixes you say they use for breeding?

[yukidomari]

Originally Posted by Wolves

Just because a dog isn't registered with a particular organisation does not mean the dog isn't pure. Rest assured our dogs have been health checked, and don't exhibit HD or eye problems.

no, it doesn't mean that they aren't pure, but it means they shouldn't have been bred without slovak club approval... and 5 month old puppies normally don't show any congenital health problems anyway.

I'm curious as to why you disagree with the owners of your puppies' parents, who in a previous post believes the male is a mix? Or does she no longer think that?

Originally Posted by yukidomari

no, it doesn't mean that they aren't pure, but it means they shouldn't have been bred without slovak club approval... and 5 month old puppies normally don't show any congenital health problems anyway.

I'm curious as to why you disagree with the owners of your puppies' parents, who in a previous post believes the male is a mix? Or does she no longer think that?

"no, it doesn't mean that they aren't pure, but it means they shouldn't have been bred without slovak club approval" Well if that doesn't mean that they're not pure, then what basis do you have to say that these dogs aren't pure then?

Go back and read. He said the male MAYBE a mix, and he only said that after multiple people who see themselves as all knowing authorities said they weren't pure. If you look at the original posts you'll see he has both listed as pure.

[enomis52]

Originally Posted by Sona_Bognarova

Good morning, yes, of course it is MY perception, whose else? I am presenting my point of view, as everyone else here. And this view IS based on my experience in Australia and what I can read here. And I used "Australia is not ready" as a figure of speech based on what I can see everyday, what people expect from dogs here and also on that immediate interest in the pups, no matter the origin. I think it is pretty clear that I did not talk in absolute terms. As Ina mentioned, it could have happened that the dogs were imported with the best intention and not knowing the background but after getting the information about the origin being unclear - why breeding? The fact that the pups look like CSW does not mean much. I really don't desire to start quarrels here. I would rather help those who dedicate all the efforts, time and funds to import pure CSWs in Australia and do their best to establish a good breeding base. At present I can't do it myself and I am getting a bit scared to see people shortcutting already (the dogs are here already, ok, questionable origin but there is not proof - let's breed, it's soo easy!). The dog breeders community and environment here in Australia in general looks to me very different to the one in Europe. It is more enclosed, not very welcoming for new people, let alone just fans and viewers, this atmosphere and the distances make new owners more separated. In general, people accept mixes of all kind much easier. And don't get me wrong here, there is nothing wrong with having a cross, any kind, might be the best companion ever. But for introducing a new breed, a good breeding base with reliable origin/background is essential. Establishing a well working community of CSW owners, developing into a breeders club sooner or later is another very important step - a club is not only a bunch of people meeting once in a while to have fun together (although that is one of very positive sides of a club life...), it is first of all the source of help and information, leadership and up the certain level also a warranty that the breed will be presented to public in the best ways - through the breeding selection, education of the new owners, publicity etc. Clubs will deal with and promote the pure individuals only. So what will happen with those where the origin is questionable? What else would they possibly cross with? Experimenting? Good, why not, but if anything goes wrong, it can result in lots of bans of the whole breed/s. CSW are not easy, we all know it (and love them for it!) and the pressure and restrictions are getting worse. Is that what we want to risk? Getting CSW banned before it could get known and popular here? Once again, there is plenty of reliable information about the breed and breeders in Europe and I believe also many breeders who wouldn't hesitate to help Australians who would like to start with CSW the right way. Although it is also competitive field, there are breeders that would even advise you to buy from different breeder, should they see it more suitable for establishing a new breeding base. I strongly recommend to everyone in Australia who is serious about having a CSW to get as much information upfront as possible, be patient and make a wise choice. A good breeder will give you pros as well as cons of the breed, it is good to know what you are going to deal with...:-) Good luck

Sorry, Sona. My post was not meant to sound like an attack and I certainly was not looking for a quarrel (whatever came afterwards.......). I just wanted to point out that I'm sure that there are SOME people here who can be fantastic responsible breeders. I guess the internet can make things sound out of the contecxt they were meant in.

You make some excellent points that I did not think of. I in no way condone the representing of the breed with dogs that have murky lineage, however lovely that animal is. And we certainly do not want to frighten people with this scary new "hybrid" (I can see that occuring if not enough care is taken).

I truly respect your opinion and experience. Most of us here are babys when it come to CzW's so all thoughts, opinions and experience simply must be considered.

[Ligerwolve2]

An he has yet another litter looking for homes. However he says now both parents have papers? Don't suppose anyone can clear that up? Would be great news if he now had hold of proper papers at least.

Although I have heard he still hasn't bothered to health test his dogs.