Cesar about Wolf-Dog Hybrids

[Tassle]

Originally Posted by AMERICANI

That dog wanted to open him up. What method would you have used? Every time I have been in a fight and choked someone out or had been choked out, my eyes, face, and skin turn red, and my tongue turns bluish, but I have never been injured from it, so I know there is a possibility (he does care for the well being of the animal even if it looked really bad (which I'm not arguing - it did) I am not wanting to appear hostile! I do not condone any form of abuse! I just think, perhaps, that was the only way to get that dog out of that state of dominance. I just can't see another way to get this animal out of that state. The last thing you would want would be for him to turn on a person (especially the handler) then he gets put down and the wolfdog community gets another bad mark. The moment the dog chilled out, Ceasar let off... Honestly, if there is a better way, please post a link. I'm just happy none of my dogs have ever been in that mindset. These aren't little dogs. As for E-Collars, I have put one on my own neck and used it (I use everything on myself first before using it on my dogs)..... it isnt harmful (seeing stars for a couple of seconds isn't harmful, just annoying) and I wouldn't call it pain, just very startling and attention grabbing!.. (with this said, MANY people misuse MANY types of training equipment.. and without proper training or education, many people don't need to use certain tools.. I returned the E-Collar because it didn't always make contact through heavy fur, and I was afraid I would put it on too tight... Perfect example - I wasn't properly trained to use the thing, and I didn't need it.. As far as kicking, Cesar has made it clear that he hasn't kicked the dog hard, he only used his foot as a distraction (Please tell me if I have missed a particular episode!).. I just wanted to leave my 2 cents... Again, not being hostile..

The dog only wanted to open him up because he threw it into a situation it was not equip to deal with.

He deliberately placed it in close proximity to a dog it cannot cope with seeing (the owners told him this) waited for it to get wound up, I am not sure if he deliberately ignored the signals the dog was giving off or he was not expecting the dog to react to his 'interference' the way it did.

the dog gives several signals before it reacts - he waits for it to be right on the edge and then he pushes it over by 'nudging'. What you are seeing is redirected aggression. The dog is SO hyped due to what he has done it.

This is a great clip on how to ignore dogs body language and what can happen when you do.

I feel so sorry for the dog.

[Shadowlands]

Originally Posted by Tassle

The dog only wanted to open him up because he threw it into a situation it was not equip to deal with.

He deliberately placed it in close proximity to a dog it cannot cope with seeing (the owners told him this) waited for it to get wound up, I am not sure if he deliberately ignored the signals the dog was giving off or he was not expecting the dog to react to his 'interference' the way it did.

the dog gives several signals before it reacts - he waits for it to be right on the edge and then he pushes it over by 'nudging'. What you are seeing is redirected aggression. The dog is SO hyped due to what he has done it.

This is a great clip on how to ignore dogs body language and what can happen when you do.

I feel so sorry for the dog.

That's exactly what I thought when I first saw this clip - he deliberately winds the poor dog up so that he can exact his punishment (sorry, 'correction') I didn't have a lot of time for his 'quick fix' methods before, but now am actually starting to detest the man for what he does

[AMERICANI]

I guess I wrote so much before that my question became garbled in everything else... My actual question was, with an owner that doesn't know what to do with a dog of this capability, what other method is there? I understand if a dog belonged to an experienced trainer, there would be time to use other methods (they shouldn't have reach that state in the first place if that was the case). When someone desperate for help called Cesar, he does what is efficient and quick... Given the circumstances, I am having a hard time understanding the hostility towards him and his methods if that is what the case calls for.. He says he "Rehabilitates dogs and trains humans".. Of course there are more subtle ways to deal with issues.. I see it as an equal to some psychotherapy, where someone is driven to the breaking point to get out / over a fear, or traumatic experience..

[Tassle]

Originally Posted by AMERICANI

I guess I wrote so much before that my question became garbled in everything else... My actual question was, with an owner that doesn't know what to do with a dog of this capability, what other method is there? I understand if a dog belonged to an experienced trainer, there would be time to use other methods (they shouldn't have reach that state in the first place if that was the case). When someone desperate for help called Cesar, he does what is efficient and quick... Given the circumstances, I am having a hard time understanding the hostility towards him and his methods if that is what the case calls for.. He says he "Rehabilitates dogs and trains humans".. Of course there are more subtle ways to deal with issues.. I see it as an equal to some psychotherapy, where someone is driven to the breaking point to get out / over a fear, or traumatic experience..

I do not think the dog needed what he did - it was very sensationalist and made 'good' tv, which I guess is why he did it. But this was not rehabbing, it was making the dog more afraid of him, than of the presence of the other dog.

[AMERICANI]

I understand

[Jennin Lauma]

I have noticed that most Cesar fans are people who have little or no up-to-date scientific information / knowledge about the social life & communication of wolves & dogs, and what has been learned about the effectiveness of different training ideologies & methods.

Everyone who has been following his/her time in canine science aswell as the studies about the learning process in different mammals, know exactly why Cesar's methods are out dated and harmfull, and today completely lack scientific base, -or in better words: is today scientifically proven to be incorrect.

For further reading I recomment people to Google "Dominance theory", and read the articles that come up.

Also here are some that I had bookmarked:

http://www.dogwelfarecampaign.org/why-not-dominance.php

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/20...imal-behaviour

http://www.apdt.com/petowners/choose...ancemyths.aspx

http://www.apdt.com/petowners/choose/dominance.aspx

http://www.apdt.com/petowners/articl...s/Yin_MA09.pdf

http://www.whole-dog-journal.com/iss..._yJC0.facebook

The wolf bilogist Dr Dave Mech talks about why the "alpha" term he himself is somewhat responsible for, is incorrect and out dated:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tNtFgdwTsbU

[AMERICANI]

LOL... I guess I was trying to get someone to actually mention a specific alternative, rather than just tell me, "what he did was wrong". It is obvious that there are newer and more acceptable ways to get this specific dog to be helped... BTW, Thanks for the links...