Galiba guilty ??

[Vaiva]

Originally Posted by ArImInIuM

would not it be the original breed club who should be responsible for this mess for not properly followed this line? The same breed club who now swears by DNA testing.

Is it really the time and place to look for the guilty ones? Maybe instead of blaming the original breed club, it should be clever to test the suspicious dogs officialy?
So little people care about the regulations of original breed club (HD tests, bonitations), but it is confortable to blame it in this case

[ArImInIuM]

5 generations of descendants known ........... 445 dogs ..... my GOD !!!

http://www.amicale-chien-loup-tcheco...d=3596&depth=5

[Hanka]

What you write here about some 445 dogs? I don´t understand. Do you want write here they are mix or what?

[ArImInIuM]

Originally Posted by Hanka

What you write here about some 445 dogs? I don´t understand. Do you want write here they are mix or what?

Offspring1Gen=17 | 5Gen=445 | allGen=445

[Hanka]

Yes, I see he has 445 offsprings. But I want know, why you write 445 dogs- my God. Do you mean all his offsprings are some bad dogs? Mixes? Or? I have 2 his offsprings and they are czechoslovakian wolfdogs.

[ArImInIuM]

Originally Posted by Hanka

Yes, I see he has 445 offsprings. But I want know, why you write 445 dogs- my God. Do you mean all his offsprings are some bad dogs? Mixes? Or? I have 2 his offsprings and they are czechoslovakian wolfdogs.

I totally agree with this, I myself a descendant of Galibi and I see in it a Czechoslovakian Wolfdog, but if one follows the logic of WD, all dogs should be spent in category "MIX" , that is what makes me say "my god"

[Hanka]

Aha, sorry, now I understand you what you mean.

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

Hi Ariminium,

the problem is not Galiba or some Crying Wolf dogs.
In 2002 I saw Galiba at the age of five weeks, when he was still with his mother and I know most of his ancestors. He is a pure CSW.
I didn't want him because he was much too shy for my purposes and even panicking when Edit took him into the house.
The problem occured in the following generations in France or Finland, in fraudulent breeding like the C and D-litters de la Louve Blanche or the G-litter de l'Ostrevent, by the ones like Capiez, Domer or Turkilla.
Ruining the reputation of sensible French breeding.
Neither wolfdo.org admins nor some persons posting here are the problem of the admittedly not really good reputation of French breeding at the moment.
The above mentioned (and others in Germany and Italy in the next future) persons are the problem.

Michael

[admin]

Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn

the problem is not Galiba or some Crying Wolf dogs.

The red puppies born by de la Mollynière de Lo'Scale kennel come out of the two Crying Wolf-dogs and the parentage has been tested and confirmed. At the moment there is not doubt that the "red colour of a Saarloos" come out of the Crying Wolf kennel.
The same is with the Czech case of white puppies - the parentage is also tested there.
In both cases "Galiba"'s blood was involved.
Although I also think that not Galiba is the possible Saarloos mix but there are serious questions if he is father of (all) his offsprings and not the Saarloos Dvorack living by Crying Wolf.

[yukidomari]

Originally Posted by Admin

In both cases "Galiba"'s blood was involved.
Although I also think that not Galiba is the possible Saarloos mix but there are serious questions if he is father of (all) his offsprings and not the Saarloos Dvorack living by Crying Wolf.

In other words, there is a possibility that Galiba himself is not a Saarloos mix, 'simply' that his name was hung on papers which were actually sired by the Saarloos Dvorak?

[Hanka]

Hello admin, you know nothing (!!) about my pups, so be so friendly and don´t write about my pups like about untypicle, OK?
You attacked them when they was 2 days (because you hate owner of father of pups) old and it continues now, when one of these puppy is World winner. Are you really so envy person?
You know nothing about genetic base of this pups.....
You don´t know history of breed here in Czech.
You never had seen pups in 80., 90. years....

[admin]

Originally Posted by Hanka

Hello admin, you know nothing (!!) about my pups, so be so friendly and don´t write about my pups like about untypicle, OK?
You attacked them when they was 2 days (because you hate owner of father of pups) old and it continues now, when one of these puppy is World winner. Are you really so envy person?
You know nothing about genetic base of this pups.....
You don´t know history of breed here in Czech.
You never had seen pups in 80., 90. years....

I do not hate anyone - I have no reason to be envy. Being not a breeder has its advantages.
What I wrote base only on the arguments/facts written in this topic: http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/showthread.php?t=20855
After it I asked several (also long-time) breeders and all of them described the puppies as "strange". I do not say the puppies are mixes but they vary a lot from the "standard" - it is why I wrote "untypical" (maybe it would be better to use "not typical" word).
Anyway it seems to be another "abnormality" appearing in the CW line which must be cleared.

[AMERICANI]

In defense of the breeder, who apparently is 100% confident that no problems have stemmed from there kennel, I recommend to them (in there best interest) to give DNA samples from Galiba and the "red Saarloos" and send them in to the officials for the sake of their honor since it seems everyone is "out to get them". They obviously have nothing to hide; they even said so!

[admin]

Originally Posted by yukidomari

In other words, there is a possibility that Galiba himself is not a Saarloos mix, 'simply' that his name was hung on papers which were actually sired by the Saarloos Dvorak?

There is another possibility - if the matings were made unintentionally (because for example Dvorack or the females excaped from the cages) the females can be really covered by Galiba but ALSO by the red Saarloos. So there is a possibility that even in one litter some puppies can be sired by Galiba and some by the red Saarloos.

Of course there are some arguments against the word "unintentionally" - first because it seems that the same story repeated again and again. Second good argument given by one of the breeders is that fact that CW kennel base on breeding and rising money - there was no logical explanation for buying a MALE Saarloos in a country where there were NO females for mating. In all neighbor coutries there were maybe 3-4 females. So from the "economic" point of view owning a Saarloos made no sence.

But there is also (almost) no possibility that Galiba is Saarloos mix - he was born 2002.01.14. Dvorack (the Saarloos) on 05/10/2003 - we have no information when he joined the CW pack but basing on this information we can say that the CW litter A (1999.02.03) - M (2004.01.31) are pure. In fact there were also no untypical characteristics appearing by the offsprings of those dogs.

The red puppies born in the litter of Thalia and Sibir show that a red Saarloos was "involved" in this line. There are problems with the colours, Saarloos character and exterier appearing by the offsprings of "V". Now it seems also by "R".

So it would be good idea to make the parentage test of ALL Galiba offsprings. Galiba is still alive - his offsprings too. There would be a possiblity to take the blood of Galiba (by a OFFICIAL comission) - send it to Laboklin or Antagene and to send there also the blood of his puppies. The owners would get confirmation that their dogs are sired by Galiba (or not).

What is also unknown: there is the possiblity that also other litters can be sired by a Saarloos. At least there are some "strange" things happening also by some other litters - as the mentioned "Y" CW. In this case the same thing can be done - the blood of Issar can be stored by Laboklin or Antagene and the owners can get certificates confirming that their dogs are sired by him.

In this case at least some dogs can be cleared without any "help" of CW-breeder (who is not interested to help anybody).

[ArImInIuM]

Originally Posted by Admin

There is another possibility - if the matings were made unintentionally (because for example Dvorack or the females excaped from the cages) the females can be really covered by Galiba but ALSO by the red Saarloos. So there is a possibility that even in one litter some puppies can be sired by Galiba and some by the red Saarloos.

Of course there are some arguments against the word "unintentionally" - first because it seems that the same story repeated again and again. Second good argument given by one of the breeders is that fact that CW kennel base on breeding and rising money - there was no logical explanation for buying a MALE Saarloos in a country where there were NO females for mating. In all neighbor coutries there were maybe 3-4 females. So from the "economic" point of view owning a Saarloos made no sence.

But there is also (almost) no possibility that Galiba is Saarloos mix - he was born 2002.01.14. Dvorack (the Saarloos) on 05/10/2003 - we have no information when he joined the CW pack but basing on this information we can say that the CW litter A (1999.02.03) - M (2004.01.31) are pure. In fact there were also no untypical characteristics appearing by the offsprings of those dogs.

The red puppies born in the litter of Thalia and Sibir show that a red Saarloos was "involved" in this line. There are problems with the colours, Saarloos character and exterier appearing by the offsprings of "V". Now it seems also by "R".

So it would be good idea to make the parentage test of ALL Galiba offsprings. Galiba is still alive - his offsprings too. There would be a possiblity to take the blood of Galiba (by a OFFICIAL comission) - send it to Laboklin or Antagene and to send there also the blood of his puppies. The owners would get confirmation that their dogs are sired by Galiba (or not).

What is also unknown: there is the possiblity that also other litters can be sired by a Saarloos. At least there are some "strange" things happening also by some other litters - as the mentioned "Y" CW. In this case the same thing can be done - the blood of Issar can be stored by Laboklin or Antagene and the owners can get certificates confirming that their dogs are sired by him.

In this case at least some dogs can be cleared without any "help" of CW-breeder (who is not interested to help anybody).

Then what are you waiting for these tests?
Galiba that passed away?

it would be a lot of innocent dogs

[yukidomari]

Originally Posted by ArImInIuM

Then what are you waiting for these tests?
Galiba that passed away?

it would be a lot of innocent dogs

I don't think Galiba's owner or owner of other suspected CW dogs is cooperating at all, and there isn't any 'dog police' which can compel or force such an action upon an owner :/

[admin]

Originally Posted by ArImInIuM

Then what are you waiting for these tests?
Galiba that passed away?

I can not go to Hungary. I can not ask for the blood - especially that the breeder is against the tests.

The ONLY people who can make it are the owners of the puppies - they can ask for it OFFICIALLY due to the fact that the whole can IS suspicious.

Originally Posted by ArImInIuM

and yet when I read the many posts I really feel that we are in full Judgement without evidence, with little chance to defend themselves properly because even openly asking what evidence we have, things n 'no change, worse, they get worse with each new "discoveries" to each new revelation unfounded, just based on "one says" ......

Please read the topic once again.

There are red puppies born. IT IS A FACT. The b-colour NEVER existed by our breed. SECOND FACT. The parents of the red puppies are Crying Wolf CsW. THIRD FACT. And the Saarloos was/is living by the CW breeder is another fact.

That the cages by CW are not "Wolfdog-proof" and that the breeder is AFFRAID to make any DNA tests are just another small facts. And there is much much more...

Do you have another explanation how the red colour (bb) appeared by Crying Wolf and why it is present ONLY THERE?


I really undserstand the problem of Galiba-offspring owners BUT if we will not solve the problem NOW in few years we will have MUCH MORE "Galiba" offsprings. What will happend when (new) DNA tests will show that some offsprings of Galiba are Saarloos crossees? NOBODY WILL ASK THE OWNERS - nobody will care. The dogs - ALL OF THEM - will lose the pedigrees.
Do you want to be one of the people who will be responsible for it? We NOT.


The whole problem looks like this: you are trying to protect Galiba-offsprings owners. There is the possiblity that some of the dogs are mixes - and some not. It seems that some of them are kept for "guilty" deservedly.

What we are trying to do is to protect purebreed CsW-breeders. They do not want to breed mixes - and they really ask to mark ALL suspicious lines. Because they don't want to use ANY possible mixes. It is not about not using the CW dogs or dogs from any other kennels. But abnout not using any untypical dogs which can be a mix.
If you will ask the breeders you will consider that there was no such casee for MANY years in Germany, Czech Republic or Slovakia. The same apply as far I know to Lithuania and Poland. It was sure that the dogs bred there are pure. But now also this pure populations can be destroyed - "thanks" to the French and Hungarian mixes.

My suggestion: WE can not do anything. We are not a organization. But the breed clubs in the origin countries ARE. Ask them for help - they can speak with the Hungarian kennel club and send a breeding comittee with veterinarian who will OFFICIALLY take the blood of the suspiciousd dogs. I think they will be interested due to the fact that some of the suspicious dogs are living also in CZ and SK.

So far I like the behaviour of two male owners: Juri and Issar. Thanks to it the cases of "Y" and "P" litter from Crying Wolf can be solved pretty fast. The blood of Juri is as far I know already stored. So the owners of the "P"-litter can test their dogs. Mother of this litter - Yolka - was sold to "nowhere". But the second owner - of Issar - Sona Bognarova is was prepared to offer the blood of Issar for testing. So the "Y"-CW owners will have the possiblity to test their dogs too.
It do not solve the "real" problem of "Galiba" offsprings but at least few CW owners will have the possiblity to sleep calm.

[Nebulosa]

Lorry, I think you dont WANT to understand the question about "why Admin writes english at all other foruns", because it's easier to you simply come here and write in French using this silly excuse.
Admin does not need to speak all the languages of Wolfdog.org, but at least one language everyone can understand ( or will have someone to translate in every language) and it is English.
Because Admin did wrote in English at French forum does not give to you or any other french people the right to comes here writting in French at english forum.

It's a simple common sense question, isn't it?

If YET you havent understood, is very different the moderators translate few posts done in english by admin and the moderatores translate whole pages of topics with several members writting in different languages to English.

Moderators and Admins have their own life outside wolfdog.org.

Then next time you do it I will freeze your account for 2 weeks. ;*
(it's valid for all the others members)


Of course, I will start to remove all posts in "other languages" which appeared at this forum from now on because I consider that some kind of lack of respect to the English speakers wich comes here to learn and also to the international members who make part in this forum.

[Jennin Lauma]

Here in Finland the Kennel Club just lately published terrible news in Cotton De Tulear breed; over 700 dogs in the breed have found out to have falce pedigrees, and so they have now been removed to 'not for breeding' -register.
They were still pure breed (not mixes of several breeds) but had wrong parental information.

The high number of the offspring does not make a difference; if some dog is found out to have falce pedigrees, all the offspring of that dog will also pay the price for this no matter how many there are. So in a small breed this could cause serious problems after a huge part of the whole population should be left outside breeding.

[Nebulosa]

Oh, I did moved also the post of Ariminium in reply to MichaelundInaEichhorn, which he translate to english, as I cant bring it back here is it:

Originally Posted by Ariminium

when I read this:

http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/showpos...27&postcount=6

some say openly that there is a concern about the descendants of Galibi, but it would not it?

This would be very appreciate of all the world is prior to posting WD anything, there have evidence!

I read that the moderators were convinced (from a reliable source) that a dog was the wolf American father of a CLT .....

and it is absolutely not the case !!!!!

So where is the true, or is the fake?

so many rumors, so many false allegations, merely tarnish this forum I would end up a fable "Peter and the Wolf"

to cry wolf too ...... one day, you lose all credibility and some moderators or admin is already .......

us and when I read the simple title of this post, is not mere rumors to destroy a breeder?

http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/showthread.php?t=20855