Saarloos mixes by "Crying Wolf" kennel (CSV red colored)

[CDaniela]

Originally Posted by Jennin Lauma

As far as I have understood it is possible to make a DNA test to see if two individuals have same parents (siblings) or one parent (half-siblings) without a sample from the parents needed (by only comparing the supposed siblings DNA to each other).

Our breed is loaded with inbreeding. Variability of the breed (genes) is very small. Dogs are genetically very similar. This is not a problem for "human race" (for example).
The only reliable test is paternity and maternity.

If we wanted to determine the difference between SW and CSW, we produce DNA profile of about 100 or more CSW and Sw. Comparing these profiles we can determine the difference. It is likely that some alleles are characteristic only for CSV and others only for Sw. Problem can occur if the genetic difference between SW and SW insignificant (low).

[Shadowlands]

Thank you all, you have cleared up a lot of questions in my mind

Now I am only a little confused instead of completely...

It is a shame that DNA from the siblings (and their lines) cannot be used as I, for one, would have submitted that for a test.

[Jennin Lauma]

Originally Posted by CDaniela

If we wanted to determine the difference between SW and CSW, we produce DNA profile of about 100 or more CSW and Sw. Comparing these profiles we can determine the difference. It is likely that some alleles are characteristic only for CSV and others only for Sw. Problem can occur if the genetic difference between SW and SW insignificant (low).

Surely there should be a clear difference due to the different wolf subspecies used in creation of the breeds. Of course these mix breedings done during the years have messed up that to some extent but it should be possible to recognize such mixes also by comparing the dog's genes with the genes of European and American wolves.
But how much the fact, that also GSD was created from wolf x dog crosses, would problemize this since it is in both CsV and SWH?
Is there allready a DNA profile for GSD done? If there is, then it is possible to rule out the genes typical for GSD, and distinguish the ones that are not.

Within the last 15 years there has been massive genetic studies of wolves around the world and these days they can even genetically distinguish different wolf subspecies inside the US. So I'd think it should be relatively easy to distinguish an European wolf from American.

The price for such a test is likely to be alot more expencive than the average parental test though.

[admin]

Originally Posted by Rona

In this situation, if owners of the questioned-identity dogs' parents will continue refusing to cooperate, the only reasonable option is to withdraw ALL suspected dogs/lines from breeding.
...and claim rectification from the breeder?

It is hard to writew it but it seems so.
Due to the fact that the Crying Wolf breeder do not agree to make the DNA tests (is affraid that the true will be shown?) which will proove that father of Sibir is Galiba and that no Saarloos was used by this kennel (intentionally or not). And because we can have doubts by all dogs sired by him - the only reasonable option is to remove all litters with this blood and really put the option "under investigation" warning next to all dogs with the suspicious Crying Wolf blood.
Maybe owners of the offsprings will be more successful by clearing this story.

[Norky]

Edit (Crying Wolf ) made DNA test some of her suspected dogs, all are csw...and some Crying Wolf owners made it also ...of course all are csw!
To see what happened when Frank posted his result (Yanatos) these people are not ready to make it for public.
Edit wrote about a year ago that she is not ready to cooperate and write anything here...as she and her dogs were mired several times.

And the kennel Neckartal ....
I think it is enough to see the data sheet ..
Edit for dogs are beautiful, and it is a fact.
Prestigious showresults what many people (including me) only dream of.
One breeder is at home in Hungary, and she is Edit.
We only can we learn from the big breeders.
I see a pointless debate ...
Why can not we bring together more?

[admin]

Originally Posted by Norky

Edit (Crying Wolf ) made DNA test some of her suspected dogs, all are csw...

She made it? How can we be sure that she took the blood of the right dogs - males? Why she didn't agree to test the dogs on the official way or by the Lorry's vet and the official laboratory?
Did she testeds the DNA of Sibir - did she have proofs that he is the son of Galiba? I will ask Lorry if she get the copy of the results.

So far: taking into consideration the fact that in many cases words written and published here by Edith were simple lies I will personally not trust her even a bit.
I would be also surprised if any breeder would say "my dogs are mixes"...

If the dogs are OK than I think it will be no problem to make a official comission (maybe made by the clubs from the origin countries) who will travel there and take blood of the dogs (not all of course because there are too many - i mean only the suspicious one. The same can be done in France. It will be pretty easy to arrange it, right?

Originally Posted by Norky

Edit wrote about a year ago that she is not ready to cooperate and write anything here...as she and her dogs were mired several times.

When? I remember the case when she bred the 10 years old bitch after she told she will not breed her anymore and that even that her kennel club forbid breeding with so old dogs. I do not wonder that many breeders didn't agreed with such style of breeding. But it was not attacking but they were just speaking theirs mind. It is something normal on a disscusion forum.

Originally Posted by Norky

Prestigious showresults what many people (including me) only dream of

Can you repeat it to Lorry? She had to take out of breeding her male and female and also all the offspring of the dogs. Becasue nobody DREAMS about red or Saarloos alike puppies.

Originally Posted by Norky

We only can we learn from the big breeders.

Believe me - I'm not an longtime owner but reading the post posted here on forum I hope nobody would learn from her how to breed or how to keep the dogs. In mMy opinion every dog deserves a stately life and decent living conditions and what I see on the photos taken in her kennel do not fullfil even the minimun of the requirements.

[Norky]

Dear Admin!

Misunderstood me.

I wrote the owner of the Neckartal kennel the last rows.
This whole situation is depressing ...
And infuriating ...
They should act together not stretched as a common goal.
In my opinion Edit breeders.
A great success with their dogs.
Of course, as many others.

And you see, not only internationally but also in Hungary is taking place to discredit each other.
I have had enough of this ..
I do not understand the whole thing ... why is it good?

Neckartal kennel ....
In my case, you know ...
I did not write forums it would be a reason.

Sooner or later the truth always reveals.

Regards:
Aniko Molnar
vom Hause Norky kennel

[monita]

I'll agree anytime with the things Norky spoke of. If you do DNA tests asked by others, because at the moment they say not to buy dogs from Hungarian people. I'm Hungarian too. I would do the test for peace. And if the test is good, there's no place for arguments.

P.S. I congratulate you for your best dog (titles, character --- CH. Nork von Neckartal)

Maybe you bought it from a breeder?

[Margo]

Originally Posted by Norky

Edit (Crying Wolf ) made DNA test some of her suspected dogs, all are csw...and some Crying Wolf owners made it also ...of course all are csw!

Lets make me understanding - till now I'm reading here that is will be hard to make parentage tests even basing on the half-siblings. And she was able to make parentage test of dogs which are not living anymore?

I'm the first person who will be happy to know that she didn't made any crosses and the only problem are French American-Wolfdogs. But I'm also the last one who will believe in her words. And anything what was not made on the official.

[Norky]

Originally Posted by Margo

Lets make me understanding - till now I'm reading here that is will be hard to make parentage tests even basing on the half-siblings. And she was able to make parentage test of dogs which are not living anymore?

I'm the first person who will be happy to know that she didn't made any crosses and the only problem are French American-Wolfdogs. But I'm also the last one who will believe in her words. And anything what was not made on the official.

strange: you want DNA test, but doesn't believe the results....you want DNA test, but you kow to make parentage test is impossible as her old dogs, which are questionable for you are dead.
To be honest: this saarloose gene is very strange that appears just in the 2nd and 3rd generaton, because I have never seen Crying Wolf dog which would have sarloose alike. So maybe the problem is coming from somewhere else.
And to be honest . if you read back thios nice forum chatting, you musn't be wondering that Edit doesn't want to cooperate.For cooperation needs two part: you cancel her HD results, assist to the topics about her kennel and dogs yera by year.
year by year,
telling a lot of unreal thigs: like the kennelklub forbid to make pedigree her pups....??????????
I realy don't think that these forum would be for the breed. I'm sure many people are escape when see your bloody-mounth group!
And please tell me how many saarloose where around Hungary at teh age of 2000's, when Galiba and Flash born????????
What is the problem Margo??? You can't sale you pups?? You attact many breeders and talking lies and lies and lies. What is the fact?? You haevn't got nothing againt Edit!!!! Nothing!!!
And do you think a special judge would give a saarloose mix Re. CACIB in WDH Bratislava (Volos) or mate his male with a saarloose mix (Issar-Flash) ????
Or some slovakian and czeh breeders are stupid and can't see and buy saarloose mix???
something ele : could you tell me why would she make saarloose mixes with an old typed, homosigota red (it means couldn't bring other coloure) saarloose? It is totaly different type like csw.....and I'm still asking how could it happened that the saarloose alike dogs are coming just in the 2nd and 3rd generation...but not born in the kennel Crying Wolf.
Also question : is Edit idiot to come to mateing , pay studfee and than let the saarloose to fuck her female??????
STOP INSULTING EDIT and OWNER OF HER DOGS!!!!!

[Morian]

Originally Posted by Norky

And please tell me how many saarloose where around Hungary ...is Edit idiot to come to mateing , pay studfee and than let the saarloose to fuck her female??????

[Margo]

Originally Posted by Norky

To be honest: this saarloose gene is very strange that appears just in the 2nd and 3rd generaton, because I have never seen Crying Wolf dog which would have sarloose alike. So maybe the problem is coming from somewhere else.

Please read again what I wrote about the red colour and how it is heritated! It is the most basic rule of the dog coat colour genetics. It is not STRANGE - it is normal. NORMAL is that the red color appears first later (when two genes meet) because it is RECESSIVE!

Originally Posted by Norky

And to be honest . if you read back thios nice forum chatting, you musn't be wondering that Edit doesn't want to cooperate.

There are more CW owners which want to make the DNA tests. Are they also "sent by devil"? It is so bad that people want to know the truth? Some people really care about it - it is not because they want to fight with any breeder. They just want to be sure that dogs which they bought as CsW are really CsW. And the breeders want to know if the dogs they plan to use (who have CW blood) are real CsW.
Believe me - I will be the most happy person if everything will be cleared and it will be showed that the dogs are purebreed. It was enough damage done to our breed last time. We do not need one more mess.

Originally Posted by Norky

And please tell me how many saarloose where around Hungary at teh age of 2000's, when Galiba and Flash born????????

Read what I wrote ONE MORE TIME - I don't think that Galiba is a mix. It is simple - he has born before the Sarloos was bought by CW.
BUT 1) I see there WAS a Saarloos living by CW, 2) Edith LAID that the dog can not be father of the puppies because he is sterilized and 3) she didn't agree to the DNA tests even when Lorry was prepared to pay for them.
Maybe for you it is normal behavior of a breeder. Not for me.

Originally Posted by Norky

Or some slovakian and czeh breeders are stupid and can't see and buy saarloose mix???

I was in Slovakia and I know what the breeders there think about it. Believe me - you don't want that I repeat the opinions about CW which I heard there. Czech Republic is not different. Everybody involved in the breed knows what is told during the meetings but never published officially. It is the reason why none of the esteemed breeders belong to the group of CW friends.
BUT remember - it is not about blaming the dogs! Maybe we do not agree with the style of breeding but it do not influence the breeding. If CW has nice and healthy dogs they will be used. The problem now is that there are serious doubts about their origin and pedigrees.

Originally Posted by Norky

something ele : could you tell me why would she make saarloose mixes with an old typed, homosigota red (it means couldn't bring other coloure) saarloose? It is totaly different type like csw.....and I'm still asking how could it happened that the saarloose alike dogs are coming just in the 2nd and 3rd generation...but not born in the kennel Crying Wolf.

Sorry but I think you missed all the topics written here. The red Wolfdogs were born in a litter where BOTH parents are Crying Wolf dogs. The parentage test was done and it confirmed that the parents are the mentioned CW dogs. Do you want to say that Lorry is a liar?

What with the white/lilac puppies - should we believe that Hanka painted them using photo shop? Do you want to say that Hanka is a liar?

What is with the masks which appear by this "line". Are they caused because the owner love to paint their dogs? Are they liars too?

Originally Posted by Norky

Also question : is Edit idiot to come to mateing , pay studfee and than let the saarloose to fuck her female??????

I never suggested that it was done intentionally? I think it is possible that she even had no idea that it happen. Till the red puppies were born.
Look, we all own Wolfdogs and we all know how clever they are. And we have photos where we can see the kennels were the dogs live by CW. I'm sorry but even not very strong and not very cleaver Wolfdog will have no problem to brake out of them. The fences? I will not leave here dogs alone not even for 5 minutes. The photos convinced me that there can be something true in all the stories told last time he...

Anyway I joined the group of breeder who apply the rule of "good CsW breeders": not to use any dogs coming from kennels which breed Saarloos and CsW at the same time...


But let's go back to the topic and let's make it different - we have three main things:
- red puppies born out of two Crying Wolf dogs
- white/lilac puppies born out the CW female
- Saarloos masks appeared by some CW offsprings

For every part are responsible different genes. So to exlain it with "mutation" we must agree that we have here 3 different mutations. Hard to believe because it would be not mutation but a miracle.

Do you have any other SCIENTIFIC explanation for it? I will even leave by side the other things like the "passive" Saarloos-alike character and the problems with wide set hanging ears which some people mentioned before.
Let's try to exlain only the three things.... With no personal attacks - just pure facts....

PS. I really understand your rage as all dogs which you own are Crying Wolf dogs. But believe me - also for you it will be the best solution if the official DNA tests will be done and we will finally end the CW-story. Genes do not lie. If the parentage will be officially confirmed - GREAT!
But till now it looks so - Edith do not want to cooperate with the owners of her puppies, the official clubs seem not to be interested. Private people can not do anything even if they want...

So at the moment we have three possible casses:
1) some of the CW dogs are Saarloos mixes and the Saarloos mixes spread among our breed
OR
2) the CW dogs are pure and their owners are charged unfounded
OR
1+2) some CW dogs are mixes and the mixes spread among the breed and there are also pure CW dog whose owners are charged

Every possibility is not OK - it is why we must finally SOLVE it (do not mix it with "HIDE it").

[Margo]

Originally Posted by Norky

strange: you want DNA test, but doesn't believe the results....

Because we all know know how the "private" DNA test are done. The blood is taken by the vet. ANY vet. It is enough that a friend of the breeder is a vet and it is childish easy to cheat the tests. It would be for example possible to take the blood of the Saarloos and sign it as the blood for example of Galiba. Or even send the blood of any three other dogs where it is sure that the puppy is osring of the tested parents.

I'm sorry but I heard already how the Dutch tests were cheated in similar case. And because of it I will not believe in any test which was not done on the official way - where the blood was not take by a official commission.

Originally Posted by Norky

you want DNA test, but you kow to make parentage test is impossible as her old dogs, which are questionable for you are dead.

No. You do not understand it. I mean that some parents of the suspicious dogs do not live anymore. So it is NOT POSSIBLE to make the DNA test. And Edith say she made it. HOW?

In such cases there is a possibility to make tests basing on halfsibilings or similar dogs. But as Daniela wrote - it is hard and problematic. Daniela works on the university. It is strange that is is hard for her but it was easy to do for Edith.
I really do not understand which dogs were tested and HOW.

[Lorry - MLS]

Originally Posted by Norky

what many people (including me) only dream of.

Un rêve d'avoir un chien de l'affixe Crying Wolf ?
Mais de qui se moque-t-on à la fin !....

A dream of have an dog comming from Crying Wolf?
But what a joke it is!

Je ne vois pas en quoi c'est un rêve d'avoir acheté 3 chiens, dont on à la preuve incontestable qu'il y a eu des croisements dans les lignées, sans pour autant savoir avec certitude à quel niveau exact de la lignée ... ....

I dont see in what is a dream to have bought 3 dogs which have an incontestable proof that mixages happened by their lines, without being sure about in which level of their lines it happened...

Je ne vois pas comme quoi c'est un rêve de devoir stériliser

I dont see how can it be an dream, of have to neuter such dogs

Sibir Crying Wolf (parceque son père est Galiba et que je ne suis pas sûre, que ce soit réellement Galiba)

Sibir Crying Wolf (because his father is Galiba and i'm not sure that it was really Galiba who covered)


Rambo Crying Wolf (parceque son père est ce même Galiba, et que le doute s'est installé dans mon esprit .... Est ce Galiba le Père ?

Rambo Crying Wolf (because his father is this same Galiba, and which doubts has settle in my mind... Is really Galiba the father?)

Thalia Crying Wolf, parceque, c'est avec le mariage avec Sibir que le roux est sorti et que là aussi, je suis incapble de savoir AVEC CERTITUDE ADN, si l'apport de Saarloos, ne pourrait pas venir également du côté de Thalia ....??

Thalia Crying Wolf, because was on its mating with Sibir that the forest-brown dogs appeared, and im incapable of being sure if in its DNA had the introduction of Saarloos, can it comes also by the side of Thalia?

De même, tous les chiens de mon cheptel qui sont des descendants directs de ces 3 chiens, que je n'ose plus utiliser, tellement j'ai la hantise de ressortir du roux ....

In the same way, I dont dare to use any of all my dogs who are direct descendants of these 3 dogs, such is my fear of have forest-brown dogs.

Cerise sur le gateau, je ne vois pas comme quoi c'est un rêve que ces mêmes chiens soient également DM/DM

I dont see how could it be an dream, as these same dogs are also DM/DM

Un rêve dites vous ?
Pour moi c'est tout simplement un CAUCHEMARD !

You said it's a dream, isn't it?
For me it's simply an nightmare!


Un petit message à l'attention de la propriétaire de Galiba :
An quickly message to the owner of Galiba:

Vous êtes vétérinaire parait il ???? un test ADN de votre chien est donc encore plus aisé à pratiquer pour vous que n'importe quel particulier ....
Je ne comprends pas votre obstination à continuer d'accepter de fermer les yeux et de refuser de faire ce test !
Comme je l'ai déjà proposé à l'éleveuse de votre chien, je suis prête à prendre en charge financière les frais de ce test !

Seems you're an veterinary, isn't it? An DNA test of your dog is even more easy to do than any other owner.
I cant understand your determination of keep with your eyes closed and refusing to do such test!
As I've already offered to the breeder of your dog, im willing to pay the costs for you do this test!

Que disent vos yeux le matin quand vous vous brossez les dents devant votre miroir ???
Votre silence complice n'est pas digne du métier que vous avez choisi d'exercer !

What say your conscience at morning when you brush your teeth in the front of a mirror?
Your silence is unworthy of the profession you have chosen to exercise!

SHAME ON YOU !

[Priska182]

Originally Posted by CDaniela

Our breed is loaded with inbreeding. Variability of the breed (genes) is very small. Dogs are genetically very similar. This is not a problem for "human race" (for example).
The only reliable test is paternity and maternity.

If we wanted to determine the difference between SW and CSW, we produce DNA profile of about 100 or more CSW and Sw. Comparing these profiles we can determine the difference. It is likely that some alleles are characteristic only for CSV and others only for Sw. Problem can occur if the genetic difference between SW and SW insignificant (low).

So Damiela is wright and it's our only possibility to reveal the true?