How can we stop our breed from collapsing under the push of fake CSW and pedigrees?

Vaiva · 16-07-2011, 09:12

Just to be exact... Does French kennel club know about these fake pedigrees? Did anyone inform them?

hanninadina · 16-07-2011, 09:56

Yuki, the stud book is not close! (or maybe this year?) But last year it was still open.

Massimo: Mutara was only in first generation named, in second generation there were named another names in the lineage and fake pedigree started.

AS Margo wrote a comission must take dna samples personally(!) from the dog and the parents. Otherwise cheating would go on.

But you are right Massimo, now there are a lot of csw on the road where you can see - and you do not need to be expert - that there are other wolfdogs in the lineage and not only csw.

Special judge who will see? I know from special judges who say, if a csw looking wolfdog fits in the standard, I can nothing do against it. And as we all know in 2009 world dog show even special judges were not able to see the difference! That is maybe the problem of beauty shows, because there it is only the beauty what counts and people can not see the different character.

And if I think in germany you can go with a wolfdog without pedigree and they will get registry papers if he/she fits to the standard - and it is not a special judge who will decide. So I could easily bring a F 1 or F 2 csw into the breed. But of course his/her papers would not be fake but real. But I know that is not the point what you mean, Massimo, the fake pedigrees.

Mikael, the slovakian club is so small in fci world that he can not do nothing. FCI is not interested in these matters. I wrote already in 2004/2005 and I never got an answer! Ok, I was in private and not "well" known - because being a beginner a bit blind with blue eyes, lol.

So I cross the fingers for you. I started with my crazy Myla and I learned so much from her, so that I think the csw have the right to stay a pure breed. Everybody has the possibilities to create his own breed.

Good luck.
Christian

Mikael · 16-07-2011, 16:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by hanninadina

Mikael, the slovakian club is so small in fci world that he can not do nothing. FCI is not interested in these matters. I wrote already in 2004/2005 and I never got an answer! Ok, I was in private and not "well" known - because being a beginner a bit blind with blue eyes, lol.

Yes, I did send a looooong e-mail whit links + a list of dogs to the FCI in 2009,,, I did re send it in 2010 and did ask way there was no replay, but this far there is no replay on that e-mail neither

Hmmm,,, now it is 2011, so I think I will send it again

FCI only wants are money not are questions

But I think they might have to listen to the patronage club = SK club, right

???

Best regards / Mikael

Pavel · 16-07-2011, 16:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikael

Yes, I did send a looooong e-mail whit links + a list of dogs to the FCI in 2009,,, I did re send it in 2010 and did ask way there was no replay, but this far there is no replay on that e-mail neither

Hmmm,,, now it is 2011, so I think I will send it again

FCI only wants are money not are questions

Mikael, dont be a idealist

. FCI is a big bussines and some parts of system like a mafia.

Sending any emails or letters are not sense. Our breed must defence only we self.

Morian · 16-07-2011, 18:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pavel

Sending any emails or letters are not sense

this is not true. i had to deal with fci 2 times... it helps, really. letters, petitions etc. we must not say "it's sensless", we must not sit idly by, we must act

i wonder how many words were said, why are you all still here doing the same - words? the only questions are: who will make, what exactly and when/how. enough. who has tried to write a letter, to create a petition, finally to make promised so long ago dna tests? auu? we have not many csv at us, but even here people are interested in pure breeding, we offered financial help if somebody decides to make test, we also want to test some dogs from here coming from the "doubtful" lines. some people from here offered to test these dogs for red pigment (i don't know is there any sense, but i'm happy that our people are ready to do anything, not only to discuss this problem virtually)

massimo · 18-07-2011, 13:33

I have to agree with Pavel...sending emails and letters is useless.
NOW is time for clubs to speak to each other and take UNITED action to protect the breed.
I am a lover of this breed for several years (at least 8...) , and I am SURE that I am not the only one who is slowly taking distance from all this mess..
disappointed that nobody is doing anything to stop it...
disappointed to see that major interest is money and finding short cuts to make "wolfish" dogs but not necessarily following the standard just to be able to sell dogs to ignorant buyers...

Funny enough, the Mutara experiment was the most "honest" one, compared to pretending your dogs are wolfish just because they come from some Crying Wolf line...so if there are some mix up situations in the DNAs..you can just blame Edit.
BULLSHIT!!
Red Saarlos looking dogs do not come from Edits lines...
These hyper wolfish french dogs do not come from these lines either, i would bet a finger on it.
AND these american wolf looking dogs who come STILL from Crying wolf lines or even from some honest Italian breeder (namely my friend Riccardo from near Rome!!) are clear and obvious fake.

When i read that people request DNA tests from Crying Wolf dogs to prove that Galiba or other of her dogs are really from their parents, I find people are really ridiculous because they refuse to see the obvious...

Sorry to state this but our breed is slowly dyeing...

hanninadina · 18-07-2011, 14:54

Massimo, you have a lot of knowledge with the breed, you can talk and write excellent. You are one of a handful csw people who knows most of them and are respected from everyone. So from my point of view you would be the best person to start a petition to the FCI. I know you want to be friend with most of the people and do not open your pandora box, but if you are screaming here, the same is true for you, why do you do not start to fight against backyard mixing outcross breeding?Best example how breeders ruined their own reputation is Cory Keizer. When she starts with a handful dogs at the begining of the 2000s, all was nice. But then she starts mixing Saarloos with csw. And what did we get? Untypical dogs and ... they did not look nice!Same starts now from France. Lots of untypical wolfdogs. They even look like some mixed Huskys or Malamutes. I forgot, Cory did from France too the last years. First under her own name and now under a different name. Frankie follows in her foodsteps.But Massimo to be honest, Edit has best possibilities to do everything where she lives. And when you see the good cooperation with Frankie everyone can simply imagine, how the deals work. Someone wrote, I do not if in this thread or another, chaeting would not happen in Slovakia and other countries. But that is not true and the over years in csw involved people know that. I know for sure in a famous slovakian kennel was done refreshing blood. And if you see these animals from the begining of the 2000, everybody who has good contact to pure wolves, know that these animals are so amazingly well and nice in behaviour, because the wolf behaviour turns out of them. But I would say, the good thing is, that a carpathian wolf was taken.That from Finland F 1 csw came down to europe and only a few do know the true pedigree is a result from witch hunting after the Mutara project! I wrote some month ago in german forum. Although I know that there is in the moment no real need to cross in a carpathian wolf it would be good to do it, so it could be prevented that the illegal mixing goes on. And truely every breeder who refuses to make dna should come on a list which is clearly published here on wolfdog.org on first sight and of course on all clubs in each country. So newbys could see immediately, where you will not get true pure csw.Of course from a wolf/csw litter not all pups will be able to be csw. Only 1 or 2 will be who can use further for breeding. But clubs must lead the breeding and not fake pedigee producers.To the fake pedigree producers I only can say, if you think you did a good breeding in crossing. Take your dogs to register them. Be fair and do the bonitation, watch for the standard. And if your fresh blood new csws will pass everything, with Gods sake go on with your breeding. But then everybody would see and can decide by themselves, if they want a new mixed but official csw or a an old line csw. Chrisitan

16-07-2011, 09:12	#1
Vaiva ir Brukne Join Date: May 2006 Location: Vilnius Posts: 1,768	Just to be exact... Does French kennel club know about these fake pedigrees? Did anyone inform them? __________________ Walkiria Girios dvasia

18-07-2011, 13:33	#6
massimo Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Prague 6 Posts: 2,090	I have to agree with Pavel...sending emails and letters is useless. NOW is time for clubs to speak to each other and take UNITED action to protect the breed. I am a lover of this breed for several years (at least 8...) , and I am SURE that I am not the only one who is slowly taking distance from all this mess.. disappointed that nobody is doing anything to stop it... disappointed to see that major interest is money and finding short cuts to make "wolfish" dogs but not necessarily following the standard just to be able to sell dogs to ignorant buyers... Funny enough, the Mutara experiment was the most "honest" one, compared to pretending your dogs are wolfish just because they come from some Crying Wolf line...so if there are some mix up situations in the DNAs..you can just blame Edit. BULLSHIT!! Red Saarlos looking dogs do not come from Edits lines... These hyper wolfish french dogs do not come from these lines either, i would bet a finger on it. AND these american wolf looking dogs who come STILL from Crying wolf lines or even from some honest Italian breeder (namely my friend Riccardo from near Rome!!) are clear and obvious fake. When i read that people request DNA tests from Crying Wolf dogs to prove that Galiba or other of her dogs are really from their parents, I find people are really ridiculous because they refuse to see the obvious... Sorry to state this but our breed is slowly dyeing... __________________ ---------- Oliver & Lunatica

18-07-2011, 14:54	#7
hanninadina Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 2,466	Massimo, you have a lot of knowledge with the breed, you can talk and write excellent. You are one of a handful csw people who knows most of them and are respected from everyone. So from my point of view you would be the best person to start a petition to the FCI. I know you want to be friend with most of the people and do not open your pandora box, but if you are screaming here, the same is true for you, why do you do not start to fight against backyard mixing outcross breeding?Best example how breeders ruined their own reputation is Cory Keizer. When she starts with a handful dogs at the begining of the 2000s, all was nice. But then she starts mixing Saarloos with csw. And what did we get? Untypical dogs and ... they did not look nice!Same starts now from France. Lots of untypical wolfdogs. They even look like some mixed Huskys or Malamutes. I forgot, Cory did from France too the last years. First under her own name and now under a different name. Frankie follows in her foodsteps.But Massimo to be honest, Edit has best possibilities to do everything where she lives. And when you see the good cooperation with Frankie everyone can simply imagine, how the deals work. Someone wrote, I do not if in this thread or another, chaeting would not happen in Slovakia and other countries. But that is not true and the over years in csw involved people know that. I know for sure in a famous slovakian kennel was done refreshing blood. And if you see these animals from the begining of the 2000, everybody who has good contact to pure wolves, know that these animals are so amazingly well and nice in behaviour, because the wolf behaviour turns out of them. But I would say, the good thing is, that a carpathian wolf was taken.That from Finland F 1 csw came down to europe and only a few do know the true pedigree is a result from witch hunting after the Mutara project! I wrote some month ago in german forum. Although I know that there is in the moment no real need to cross in a carpathian wolf it would be good to do it, so it could be prevented that the illegal mixing goes on. And truely every breeder who refuses to make dna should come on a list which is clearly published here on wolfdog.org on first sight and of course on all clubs in each country. So newbys could see immediately, where you will not get true pure csw.Of course from a wolf/csw litter not all pups will be able to be csw. Only 1 or 2 will be who can use further for breeding. But clubs must lead the breeding and not fake pedigee producers.To the fake pedigree producers I only can say, if you think you did a good breeding in crossing. Take your dogs to register them. Be fair and do the bonitation, watch for the standard. And if your fresh blood new csws will pass everything, with Gods sake go on with your breeding. But then everybody would see and can decide by themselves, if they want a new mixed but official csw or a an old line csw. Chrisitan Last edited by hanninadina; 18-07-2011 at 15:05.

16-07-2011, 09:56	#2
hanninadina Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 2,466	Yuki, the stud book is not close! (or maybe this year?) But last year it was still open. Massimo: Mutara was only in first generation named, in second generation there were named another names in the lineage and fake pedigree started. AS Margo wrote a comission must take dna samples personally(!) from the dog and the parents. Otherwise cheating would go on. But you are right Massimo, now there are a lot of csw on the road where you can see - and you do not need to be expert - that there are other wolfdogs in the lineage and not only csw. Special judge who will see? I know from special judges who say, if a csw looking wolfdog fits in the standard, I can nothing do against it. And as we all know in 2009 world dog show even special judges were not able to see the difference! That is maybe the problem of beauty shows, because there it is only the beauty what counts and people can not see the different character. And if I think in germany you can go with a wolfdog without pedigree and they will get registry papers if he/she fits to the standard - and it is not a special judge who will decide. So I could easily bring a F 1 or F 2 csw into the breed. But of course his/her papers would not be fake but real. But I know that is not the point what you mean, Massimo, the fake pedigrees. Mikael, the slovakian club is so small in fci world that he can not do nothing. FCI is not interested in these matters. I wrote already in 2004/2005 and I never got an answer! Ok, I was in private and not "well" known - because being a beginner a bit blind with blue eyes, lol. So I cross the fingers for you. I started with my crazy Myla and I learned so much from her, so that I think the csw have the right to stay a pure breed. Everybody has the possibilities to create his own breed. Good luck. Christian