How can we stop our breed from collapsing under the push of fake CSW and pedigrees?

[Rona]

I'm very sceptiacl about institutional steps, too much red tape involved and too many personal interdependencies present. IMHO there are three driving forces that can change the world: fame, sex and money.

Continuous warnings about not buying CSV with possibly faked pedigrees, not only on wd, but also on other dog sites, articles in kynological press with names of the 'suspected dogs', petitions to FCI judges, etc. in my opinion would be much more efficient.

Such and similar steps might result in a decrease in the number of puppies sold in some kennels (money?), in fewer if any, requests for some stud matchings (sex and money? ), fewer titles at shows (fame and money?).

Eventually, this would create such financial pressure that breeders who would want to keep on the market will have to prove their reliablity by storing DNA profiles of their dogs in Laboklin, OFFA or some other respected lab, so that any potential owner/breeder could use them for genetic comparisons.

Just looking at the recent furious reaction of Furyos I suppose such business pressure might be quite effective.

[Vaiva]

Just to be exact... Does French kennel club know about these fake pedigrees? Did anyone inform them?

[hanninadina]

Yuki, the stud book is not close! (or maybe this year?) But last year it was still open.

Massimo: Mutara was only in first generation named, in second generation there were named another names in the lineage and fake pedigree started.

AS Margo wrote a comission must take dna samples personally(!) from the dog and the parents. Otherwise cheating would go on.

But you are right Massimo, now there are a lot of csw on the road where you can see - and you do not need to be expert - that there are other wolfdogs in the lineage and not only csw.

Special judge who will see? I know from special judges who say, if a csw looking wolfdog fits in the standard, I can nothing do against it. And as we all know in 2009 world dog show even special judges were not able to see the difference! That is maybe the problem of beauty shows, because there it is only the beauty what counts and people can not see the different character.

And if I think in germany you can go with a wolfdog without pedigree and they will get registry papers if he/she fits to the standard - and it is not a special judge who will decide. So I could easily bring a F 1 or F 2 csw into the breed. But of course his/her papers would not be fake but real. But I know that is not the point what you mean, Massimo, the fake pedigrees.

Mikael, the slovakian club is so small in fci world that he can not do nothing. FCI is not interested in these matters. I wrote already in 2004/2005 and I never got an answer! Ok, I was in private and not "well" known - because being a beginner a bit blind with blue eyes, lol.

So I cross the fingers for you. I started with my crazy Myla and I learned so much from her, so that I think the csw have the right to stay a pure breed. Everybody has the possibilities to create his own breed.

Good luck.
Christian

[Mikael]

Originally Posted by hanninadina

Mikael, the slovakian club is so small in fci world that he can not do nothing. FCI is not interested in these matters. I wrote already in 2004/2005 and I never got an answer! Ok, I was in private and not "well" known - because being a beginner a bit blind with blue eyes, lol.

Yes, I did send a looooong e-mail whit links + a list of dogs to the FCI in 2009,,, I did re send it in 2010 and did ask way there was no replay, but this far there is no replay on that e-mail neither

Hmmm,,, now it is 2011, so I think I will send it again

FCI only wants are money not are questions

But I think they might have to listen to the patronage club = SK club, right ???

Best regards / Mikael

[Pavel]

Originally Posted by Mikael

Yes, I did send a looooong e-mail whit links + a list of dogs to the FCI in 2009,,, I did re send it in 2010 and did ask way there was no replay, but this far there is no replay on that e-mail neither

Hmmm,,, now it is 2011, so I think I will send it again

FCI only wants are money not are questions

Mikael, dont be a idealist . FCI is a big bussines and some parts of system like a mafia.
Sending any emails or letters are not sense. Our breed must defence only we self.

[Morian]

Originally Posted by Pavel

Sending any emails or letters are not sense

this is not true. i had to deal with fci 2 times... it helps, really. letters, petitions etc. we must not say "it's sensless", we must not sit idly by, we must act i wonder how many words were said, why are you all still here doing the same - words? the only questions are: who will make, what exactly and when/how. enough. who has tried to write a letter, to create a petition, finally to make promised so long ago dna tests? auu? we have not many csv at us, but even here people are interested in pure breeding, we offered financial help if somebody decides to make test, we also want to test some dogs from here coming from the "doubtful" lines. some people from here offered to test these dogs for red pigment (i don't know is there any sense, but i'm happy that our people are ready to do anything, not only to discuss this problem virtually)

[massimo]

I have to agree with Pavel...sending emails and letters is useless.
NOW is time for clubs to speak to each other and take UNITED action to protect the breed.
I am a lover of this breed for several years (at least 8...) , and I am SURE that I am not the only one who is slowly taking distance from all this mess..
disappointed that nobody is doing anything to stop it...
disappointed to see that major interest is money and finding short cuts to make "wolfish" dogs but not necessarily following the standard just to be able to sell dogs to ignorant buyers...

Funny enough, the Mutara experiment was the most "honest" one, compared to pretending your dogs are wolfish just because they come from some Crying Wolf line...so if there are some mix up situations in the DNAs..you can just blame Edit.
BULLSHIT!!
Red Saarlos looking dogs do not come from Edits lines...
These hyper wolfish french dogs do not come from these lines either, i would bet a finger on it.
AND these american wolf looking dogs who come STILL from Crying wolf lines or even from some honest Italian breeder (namely my friend Riccardo from near Rome!!) are clear and obvious fake.

When i read that people request DNA tests from Crying Wolf dogs to prove that Galiba or other of her dogs are really from their parents, I find people are really ridiculous because they refuse to see the obvious...

Sorry to state this but our breed is slowly dyeing...

[Mikael]

Originally Posted by Rona

I'm very sceptiacl about institutional steps, too much red tape involved and too many personal interdependencies present. IMHO there are three driving forces that can change the world: fame, sex and money.

Continuous warnings about not buying CSV with possibly faked pedigrees, not only on wd, but also on other dog sites, articles in kynological press with names of the 'suspected dogs', petitions to FCI judges, etc. in my opinion would be much more efficient.

The FCI judge MUST judge ALL dogs in the ring after the standard, EVEN if the dog might not be pure...

Such and similar steps might result in a decrease in the number of puppies sold in some kennels (money?), in fewer if any, requests for some stud matchings (sex and money? ), fewer titles at shows (fame and money?).

Eventually, this would create such financial pressure that breeders who would want to keep on the market will have to prove their reliablity by storing DNA profiles of their dogs in Laboklin, OFFA or some other respected lab, so that any potential owner/breeder could use them for genetic comparisons.

No, we first need to MAP the breed and make a pure breed test, after that we can test just ONE dog against the MAP = CsV pure gene pool and say if that dog is pure or not, if more than 4 wolves = not pure, if other DNA than from the original GSD = not pure...

And it need to be obligatory for breeding / taken whit DNA swab and sent to lab by the Bonitation committee in the countrys where there is Bonitations... In others it can be sent to the same lab from a veterinarian... ( And yes, some still going to find a way to fake it, but than it will be very very clear that it is illigal )

On suspected fake pedigree´s one can do a Swap at any dog show and send it to the lab, if the owner do not let a club representant Swap the dog, the dog end up on a (suspected) list = Did not let us do a random Swop list...

Just looking at the recent furious reaction of Furyos I suppose such business pressure might be quite effective.

I do not know about that, as they are even exporting them
And some owners and even breeders are not sure they have a 100% pure dog or not... AND they are asking for a test, but there is not one yet...

But yes, all of this is not as easy as it sounds

But if Check, Slovak and Italy do it, very soon many more will folow, Sweden and Belgium already has obligatory DNA test for breeding, but not yet a Pure breed test to test it againt, we only test against the parents, so whit a future pure breed test it will cost much less

Best regards / Mikael

[Rona]

Originally Posted by Mikael

But yes, all of this is not as easy as it sounds

Exactly How do you get the questioned dogs DNA tested against the will of their owners?