Wolf Dog Education

[draggar]

Originally Posted by Rona

Sorry, but if a vlcak behaves like a wolf it only means that the breeder made bad selection/breeding decisions and/or neglected early socialisation of the pup. Alternatively it could mean that the owner did not socialize/train the pup correctly. A vlcak should be a vlcak not a wolf or a wolf-hybrid.

Unfortunately, some breeders select towards appearance only, ignoring character, early socialisation, owner selection, etc. and some naive buyers buy such animals without proper kennel research, knowledge about the breed, experience etc. Later such people write naive articles or claim that

Last time I checked the vlcak breed was made by crossing Czech working line German shepherds with Carpathian wolves. Not only that we're dealing with what, generations 9-12 now (roughly, depending on lines)? This means that they are still very close to their wolf ancestors and considering that there hasn't been any breeding with other breeds we can assume that the genetics in the first "official" generations are still present in today's generations.

Yes, a vlcak should be a vlcak but they will have wolfy characteristics. With mutts (no, I am not saying vlcaks are mutts) typically the breed it looks more like it will act more like. So with a vlcak that looks very wolfy (like a Slovak show line) chances are it's genetic temperament will be more wolfy than one that looks more like a silver and black GSD (like Czech working lines).

Also, thank you for the slap in the face. We socialized Pollux as much as we could. We even had him in our service dog training program and he got FAR more exposure than the average dog (South Florida Fair, short trips, etc.). When we had him he was out being socialized and even now when I walk him around the community I make a point to stop and talk to my neighbors for a while so he gets used to other people. He's still very skittish (that's the wolf side, not the GSD side). He enjoys schutzhund but I think that's mainly because he got to know the helper.

Even Luna has some characteristics that we assume are wolf characteristics. If she gets corrected and she thinks it's unfair you need to rebuild her trust, not like our GSDs or malinois who think "Stupid human, we forgive you" and aren't hurt by it.

Both vlcaks are always trying to reaffirm their place in our pack. They are far more affectionate (but not constant) than the other dogs (and any dog we've had in the past) and try more to interact with us.

Draggar, how many vlcaks have you raised until their full maturity to make such claims! How many vlcaks have you seen working, participating in shows, camps and trainings to have the right to state that
Why do you extrapolate your limited personal experience to the whole breed? CSV is not a 30% wolf! It's a dog.

Dogs are a subspecies of the wolf - that's why they were reclassified from canis familiaris to canis lupus familiaris (yes, canis lupus dingo also but we don't get into that now).

They have wolf recently in their history so they'll have wolf genetics and wolf temperaments (not 100% but a lot more than most breeds of dogs). Also at the FLA meeting the wolf hybrids there acted a lot more like our vlcaks than most dogs.

You also seemed to reiterate a lot that a vlcak is not a wolf or a wolf hybrid. Where did I make the claim that they are? All I said is that there is wolf in the breed's ancestry (I say my ancestry is in part Irish but I am not Irish). We appreciate that here. We think it is important to observe the characteristics of animals (domestic and wild) and learn from it. Many breeds of dogs have wolf characteristics and in our experience it seems that vlcaks have a lot more than the average dog. If we didn't appreciate "the wollfness" of the breed we would have stuck with German shepherds.

[Rona]

Originally Posted by draggar

We socialized Pollux as much as we could.

I didn't mean you were not socializing Pollux corectly. On the contrary I said earlier in some other thread that I appreciate you are doing so much for him. But I also remember a thread from the times when Sara's friend was getting him where several people from various parts of Europe were mentioning that CW gives great looks, but rather versatile characters - you have to be lucky to get a good dog for sports from that particular kennel. (BTW I don't have any experiences with CW dogs so it wasnt' me who made those remarks!).

Here I was talking in general terms. E.g. I know a very shy, wolfish vlcak female from a very nice litter with great genetics coming from a very good and caring kennel. Her sibilings are open and cooperating. Her skittishness, as you call it, is obviously caused by bad socialistion and negligence on the side of the owner. I wanted to make a point that not always only the breeder should be blamed for the dog's poor character... On the other hand I also know dogs of several other breeds with similar problems - shyness and other wolf characterisitics are not typical solely for vlcaks!

One thing is sure: shyness, according to the CSV standard is a vice, not a breed characterisitc

I found your post very worrying, because people who know little about vlcaks and come to this site and then read that CSV are like wolfdogs/hybrids get a very false impression! Vlcaks should be vlcaks - there is a detailed breed standard and the fact that certain number of individuals don't meet it, due to various reasons, does not automatically mean the breed is similar to wolfdogs or wolf hybrids with random mixture of genetics.

[Silvester]

Originally posted by Rona :
"I found your post very worrying, because people who know little about vlcaks and come to this site and then read that CSV are like wolfdogs/hybrids get a very false impression!

Vlcaks should be vlcaks - there is a detailed breed standard and the fact that certain number of individuals don't meet it, due to various reasons, does not automatically mean the breed is similar to wolfdogs or wolf hybrids with random mixture of genetics."

Yeah exactly !! I could not have told it in better words ! This is the reason why I have a vlcak - and not an "American wolfdog" or any kind of hybrid / crossing , no matter what generation F1 to Fxxx it is!

May be it should be addet that vlcak - unlike any wolfdog crossings - have a history of (very strict in the beginning )selection and breeding to fulfill this standart both by physical appearance and by behaviour.

This is what is missing in the "breed" of wolfdog hybrids/mixes - anything is only leave to the chance... and that´s not breeding, it´s simply producing unpredictable mixes. With sometimes bad or even fatal results!

Best greetings , Uli alias Silvester

[hanninadina]

I start with last post from Uli. Uli it is completely nonsens when you write that there is not a selection done in american wolfdog breeders. Do you think only europaen dog breeders are able to select? The selection of csw was long time ago. If you look what kind of litters were made, you see that most of the csw breeders does not care and breed their own animals or use the male in the neighbourhood.

Please do not talk about things you know nothing from.

Rona, why should a F 6 csw does not have more wolf genes like a F 6 american wolfdog or like another csw F 6? Wolfdog genes shake and can stay longer time. And your example with that one dog out of the good breeder who is skittish must not be only a case of bad socializatin from the new owner but can be of course a matter that he has more wolf genes!

I did post it two times already since last year a paper was published, which said wolfgenes are also in Saluki, Basenji, Malamute, Siberian Husky, the northern Spitz breeds. Why do you think Rona, that in csw are no wolf genes anymore? I ask this question to Prof. Dr. Robert Wayne, the most well know and best wolf genetic expert in the world and he laughed at me and asked, are you serious? Of course do all our csw have wolf genes and of course more than any other dog breed! Only some wolfdog hybrids have more.

Draggar, of course your two csw from Edit missed some socialization. When I remember right, they came to the USA when being kind of older? As we all should know the most important time of socialization are the first 4-5 month in the life of a pup.

Rona, what do you think was Rep? He was F 2 with all kinds of wolf genetics - but in his case less than in other F 2 - and he acted like a dog! I am wondering that all you people telling csw are simple dogs seems to forget that fact, that one of the maine breed founder dogs was F 2 and was able to be like a simple dog although he was a wolf hybrid!

I made a litter with csw in 2008 and now in 2011 with american wolfdog. And even in this litter there are pure dogs and two are more wolfy. But all are dogs! Unpredictable, Sylvester, what is unpredictable? It is when a none experienced dog owner takes a dog for whom he is not ready! When I got my second Briard female, I was not ready for her, because I was not dog experienced enough and she was aggressiv coming from a french line. I did not know the difference because I was a beginner. Today she would be a very easy dog for me and I guess she would be lovely not only to the family. So what I wanna say, there are no unpredictable dogs. It is like driving a Ferrari or VW Golf. There is a difference and you have to be ready for it! But it is not the fault of the wolfdog!

Christian

[Silvester]

Originally posted by hanninadina :
"Uli it is completely nonsens when you write that there is not a selection done in american wolfdog breeders. Do you think only europaen dog breeders are able to select?"

Ok, then would you please tell and explain to me what breeders are doing a selection ? And for what do they "select"??? It´s a little difficult if there is no standart or anything like this, right ?

And how many breeders do you know personally ?( Beside yourself of course !)

Please do not talk about things you know nothing from.

Originally posted by hanninadina :
"Unpredictable, Sylvester, what is unpredictable?"

Well, I want to explain to you - obviously it´s neccessary: You know - or should know ! - that genetics is all time a kind of lottery. So if you don´t know about the genetical background of parents and you have already not made a selection for what you want and what you don´t want , you can not tell anything about the results you will get, it´s just - as I said already above- by chance and a lottery.

Means that you will have very different offspring, both in exterieur and in behaviour - please read about this in the books of (for example )Erik Zimen and his experiences with crossings of wolf and poodle, if you don´t know.

[Silvester]

In addition to my posting i want to do another correction:

Originally posted by hanninadina :
"As we all should know the most important time of socialization are the first 4-5 month in the life of a pup."

As we all should know - this is not correct !

It´s not the first 4-5 months but indeed only the first 3 months ... this can also been read in a lot of books, for example these of Eberhard Trumler.

[saschia]

I meet with this again and again - operating with numbers such as wolfcontent of % of wolfblood to characterize such complex things as behavior of a wolfdog. This is complete bullshit!

The percents might work on first generations (if you thought that behavior is a continuous variable which mixes perfectly), but as soon as you start mixing F generations together the things complicate, and once you select for a certain trait, you'll get completely different results! Look at the exterior! Common 23%-wolf CSW will look 90% like wolf and the rest is not GSD-like, but more dog-like, even the worst-looking wolfdogs can be easily distinguished from GSD, better than best-looking wolfdogs from wolfs. Selection was done on the character too, and in the beginning of the breed it was much harsher than the selection on looks. The result is a wolfdog - not wolf at all, and not GSD. I would sooner compare wolfdog to cat than to either wolf or GSD.

What is wolfish in the behavior of CSW, is the constant awareness of their surroundings (except in deep sleep), the ability to think for themselves and learn quickly, becoming bored by repetitive tasks, and their ability to communicate so intensively. But this is not an opposite to GSD, it is just normal behavior that is not atrophied by domestication.

[Rona]

Originally Posted by hanninadina

Rona, (...) And your example with that one dog out of the good breeder who is skittish must not be only a case of bad socializatin from the new owner but can be of course a matter that he has more wolf genes!

No it wasn't! I saw the puppy when she was 6 and later 9 weeks old! It was a happy, friendly creature eager to learn new things and play with unknown people and animals!

Sorry, Christian, but I'm not going to talk with you or even read what you write unless you answer my question which I asked you a year ago.
Just to remind you:
My dog will be three next month and as you can see, still runs unleashed in public parks:


Sometimes even with another adult vlcak :


What's more she's able to make friends with new females (not all, but quite a few) Any comments?

PS Sorry for the OT

[draggar]

Originally Posted by Rona

One thing is sure: shyness, according to the CSV standard is a vice, not a breed characterisitc

Luna won't go up and be friends with anyone she meets. Not because she is shy but because she won't be instant friends with anyone. If we wanted that we would have gotten a lab.

I found your post very worrying, because people who know little about vlcaks and come to this site and then read that CSV are like wolfdogs/hybrids get a very false impression! Vlcaks should be vlcaks - there is a detailed breed standard and the fact that certain number of individuals don't meet it, due to various reasons, does not automatically mean the breed is similar to wolfdogs or wolf hybrids with random mixture of genetics.

I have *never* called them wolfdogs or wolf-hybrids nor will I ever call them that. This is why I'm calling the UKC club the "United Czechoslovakian Vlcak Club" (UCSVC) - and I was glad to see Marcy's club is the CSVCA (Czechoslovakian Vlcak Club of America). I've stressed that they are vlcaks and not wolfdogs or wolf hybrids (in fact, I stress this on my vlcak sites). There is a bad reputation here in the USA with 'wolf hybrids" (that's a different debate) and I didn't want the vlcak breed to be mixed in with that reputation. I'd be saying the same with Saarloos and Lupo Italianos.

BUT - there is wolf in the breed. Just like Saarloos and Lupi Italianos and (unofficially) German shepherds (moreso in DDR and Czech working lined dogs). I'm not going to deny that fact.

There are quirks (and I don't mean that as a bad thing) in their personality that are not from the German shepherd side so where did they come from? The only time we've seen these quirks, and they were in a much less scale, was in a Czech line German shepherd whose ancestors were part of the vlcak program but stayed on the GSD side (despite the fact that kennels deny this).

When people start to deny where things come from that's where problems start. I don't deny that herding (as in a dog herding sheep) is modified hunting. I also don't deny killer whale and dolphin shows are hunting demonstrations - just modified to look entertaining to us ignorant humans. When you look at it hat way you respect it and when you lose that respect problems happen.

Yes, they are a vlcak and the vlcak is a breed on it's own. We're far enough out from the initial project so we can consider them their own breed. This doesn't mean you can deny where the breed came from.

Originally Posted by GalomyOak

Some of the foundation GSD blood, as I have read several times, came from a wolf in Karlsruhe...does this mean the GSDs of the early 1900's might have behaved...wolfy?

I have video of Strongheart and will have digital video of the original Rin Tin Tin by the end of the weekend. These weren't far from the original GSD (maybe 10-15 years for Strongheart and 15-20 years for Rin Tin Tin). I'm sure people will notice quirks from them.

Sara and dragger own a CW puppy, and also a puppy from my first litter, Luna. At least in Luna's case, I can assure that she was heavily socialized, and spent her first 8 weeks sleeping about 4 meters from my bed. She was picked up at 8.5 weeks, and I feel very confident that she was socialized nicely from then on. She may have been the youngest/only CSV pup to spend some time in Manhatten. I have not had the opportunity to see Luna as an adult, but she sounds in description very much like her mother - suspicious, but open -and a talker. Anthea is a very vocal dog.

Luna is still training to be a service dog for Sara and she did PHENOMINAL in Orlando (even though she worked her rear end off). No weight support and it was mostly "dry" working (working without working). She kept up with us (even after very long days), even on hot days, and did OK with strangers during her breaks. She never freaked out when a server brought food or drinks to our table and managed crowds extremely well, we were very impressed with her. Luna is a great candidate to take over after Zorro.

The temperament issues are with Pollux (who has washed out of the training program but we may give him another try this fall). He is skittish and doesn't like strangers. I've been working on this a lot, giving neighbors treats and telling them NOT to make eye contact - just have their hand out with treats and it's been (slowly) coming along. He is much better than he used to be and he is beautiful (I think that is his saving grace) and very playful and loves the szhutzhund game (if we get his off-lead obedience down we might be able to put a schutzhund title on him). He's an odd fellow, out on the field he's confident and acts like he's the best one out there. He has it in him we're just trying to get it out more often.

Edit: Here is some Strongheart video I put on Youtube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v8rEpXcAG0E

[Rona]

Originally Posted by draggar

Luna won't go up and be friends with anyone she meets. Not because she is shy but because she won't be instant friends with anyone. If we wanted that we would have gotten a lab.

I never said that reserve indicated in the standard means shyness. A typical wolfdog is not a friend of all, but does not escape in panic at any unkown object or sound.

Originally Posted by draggar

I have *never* called them wolfdogs or wolf-hybrids nor will I ever call them that. This is why I'm calling the UKC club the "United Czechoslovakian Vlcak Club" (UCSVC) - and I was glad to see Marcy's club is the CSVCA (Czechoslovakian Vlcak Club of America). I've stressed that they are vlcaks and not wolfdogs or wolf hybrids (in fact, I stress this on my vlcak sites). There is a bad reputation here in the USA with 'wolf hybrids" (that's a different debate) and I didn't want the vlcak breed to be mixed in with that reputation.

Exactly for these reasons vlcaks owners should all be extremely careful what they write here. I may assure you lots of wolf maniacs read this site and use any trace of argument for promoting crossing CSV with wolves or CSV and wolves with other breeds. If you even innocently compare CSV with wolfdogs (which are uncomparable, because the latter is not a breed!), you give them a platform for argumentation. When I read that selection process is being carried on by wolfdogs makers, I don't know if we should cry or laugh. Those people know nothing about what happened in PS Kennel, how much misery, tragedy and death occurred there. I repeat it from time to time: only most unethical people may attempt to ruin the breed that came into being with such amount of suffering.

Originally Posted by draggar

BUT - there is wolf in the breed. Just like Saarloos and Lupi Italianos and (unofficially) German shepherds (moreso in DDR and Czech working lined dogs). I'm not going to deny that fact. ...... Yes, they are a vlcak and the vlcak is a breed on it's own.

Nobody denies wolf and GSD heritage in vlcaks, but still, as you say yourself they are dogs. I think Saschia explained it clearly enough.

Originally Posted by draggar

Luna is still training to be a service dog for Sara and she did PHENOMINAL in Orlando (even though she worked her rear end off). No weight support and it was mostly "dry" working (working without working). She kept up with us (even after very long days), even on hot days, and did OK with strangers during her breaks. She never freaked out when a server brought food or drinks to our table and managed crowds extremely well, we were very impressed with her. Luna is a great candidate to take over after Zorro.

Luna's had the best background any owner could dream of - good ancestry, caring, conscious breeder, good socialisation/training from the start. No wonder she's developing so well. I keep my fingners crossed for her just as for the whole first 'historical' US litter

Originally Posted by draggar

The temperament issues are with Pollux (who has washed out of the training program but we may give him another try this fall).

Pollux seems to be a great "lesson" for all who read WD. I'm sure many users appreciate that you write about him openly and share you worries and problems. No doubt Pollux has many positive features as any dog does, but his case shows how much heritage, individual personality and (early?) socialisation matter in case of vlcaks and how hard it is to predict when they are still pups what their final character and talents are.
Pollux is really lucky he has got you! I'm sure one day your efforts will bring great results, even if they may vary from Sara's friend's original plans and assumptions.

[Silvester]

Originally posted by Rona:

"If you even innocently compare CSV with wolfdogs (which are uncomparable, because the latter is not a breed!),...."

and

"When I read that selection process is being carried on by wolfdogs makers, I don't know if we should cry or laugh. "

This is exactly right !

And that´s the main thing and the big difference !!

[Rush]

Hey guys, i was reading about your arguing about how wolfish they are, and someone mentioned 12generations from wolfs in breeding.. Is that correct? Can you all type how many gen. your dogs are from wolfs?Just curious.. As my pup is supposed to be closer..

[Rush]

Hey guys, i was reading about your arguing about how wolfish they are, and someone mentioned 12generations from wolfs in breeding.. Is that correct? Can you all type how many gen. your dogs are from wolfs?Just curious.. As my pup is supposed to be closer..

[draggar]

Originally Posted by Rona

Exactly for these reasons vlcaks owners should all be extremely careful what they write here. I may assure you lots of wolf maniacs read this site and use any trace of argument for promoting crossing CSV with wolves or CSV and wolves with other breeds. If you even innocently compare CSV with wolfdogs (which are uncomparable, because the latter is not a breed!), you give them a platform for argumentation. When I read that selection process is being carried on by wolfdogs makers, I don't know if we should cry or laugh. Those people know nothing about what happened in PS Kennel, how much misery, tragedy and death occurred there. I repeat it from time to time: only most unethical people may attempt to ruin the breed that came into being with such amount of suffering.

Isn't that one of the points of this thread considering the title "wolfdog education"? Part of that would include responsible breeding and that includes not mixing vlcaks with hybrids.

Pollux seems to be a great "lesson" for all who read WD. I'm sure many users appreciate that you write about him openly and share you worries and problems. No doubt Pollux has many positive features as any dog does, but his case shows how much heritage, individual personality and (early?) socialisation matter in case of vlcaks and how hard it is to predict when they are still pups what their final character and talents are.
Pollux is really lucky he has got you! I'm sure one day your efforts will bring great results, even if they may vary from Sara's friend's original plans and assumptions.

Pollux has been many lessons.

Originally Posted by Rush

Hey guys, i was reading about your arguing about how wolfish they are, and someone mentioned 12generations from wolfs in breeding.. Is that correct? Can you all type how many gen. your dogs are from wolfs?Just curious.. As my pup is supposed to be closer..

On the pedigree database I can trace Luna back to the project. While there are not many birth dates in the beginning of the project a second generation dog has a birth date in 1960 (May 21, to be exact). Since the start of the project was highly secretive so it may not be exact but it appears that Luna is 9 generations from that vlcak's generation (the one born in 1960).

Also, you don't always need recent wolf genetics to make a dog wolfy (yes, I know, I sound like I'm contradicting myself). We bred a little of Finnish Spitz and still work closely with the local breeder (who is a good friend of my wife's) and they are *extremely* wolfy in temperament even though they are thought to be one of the oldest breeds of dogs (don't forget, all dogs today are descendants of either modern day wolves, a now extinct variety of wolf, or some common ancestor (like humans and apes).

This can also from selective breeding (which is what helps keep a vlcak's lines a vlcak).