DM Testresults

[z Peronówki]

Originally Posted by Hanka

I never had seen (on my own eyes) wolfdog with visible problems because DM.
Why you ask ?

Honestly - because I think we should not wish "long life without any symptoms" to any DM/DM dogs... In the most cases I would rather wish other (sometimes N/N) dogs to move in the old age as good as some of these DM/DM dogs...

Best example - Baron....
His father Gaius was living 14 years and till the end he was pretty good moving dog ("extremly good moving" when we take into consideration his age). When he was over 10 years old he was still moving much better than many YOUNGER (5-6 years old) dogs which we can see running in the show rings...
Dia Kollárov dvor at the age of 10 years is moving like young female and she is still alive (trying to beat Gaius? ).

For sure you know how many dogs are not so lucky - they are much younger but show already symptoms of degenerations.

The problem are really not the dogs with DM/DM which move simply great (and where selection will be done) but the dogs which are N/N and are used as pupular stud dogs even if they move like cripples...

[Hanka]

Margo, I know very well, dog DM/DM can be "health" = without problems to last moment. But second dog with DM/DM can have really big problems with movement. (Everybody here had seen videos). So I think my wishing of health to owners of DM/DM dogs is nothing bad. I really want health for all DM/DM dogs. Have you got problem with it?
I don´t write about some other wolfdogs or about parents of DM/DM dogs,....etc. It is not my problem. I need not your explanaition. Really. I had genetics and breeding in school.

[z Peronówki]

Originally Posted by Hanka

Margo, I know very well, dog DM/DM can be "health" = without problems to last moment. But second dog with DM/DM can have really big problems with movement. (Everybody here had seen videos). So I think my wishing of health to owners of DM/DM dogs is nothing bad. I really want health for all DM/DM dogs. Have you got problem with it?
I don´t write about some other wolfdogs or about parents of DM/DM dogs,....etc. It is not my problem. I need not your explanaition. Really. I had genetics and breeding in school.

Why your are getting so angry? What is the problem? The question was really harmless - you are breeding dogs for a long time. Did you saw any dogs which were not old but having problems with movement like the dogs on the videos?

I spoke with several breeders in private and they listed some old dogs which are moving not so good but all of them are 12, 13 or 14 years old. No wonder - nobody is so crazy to expect that for examplke a 98 years old grandpa is moving like a 21 years old boy...


Anyway - basing on the fact that the mutation in the SOD1 gene is only a factor for the development of DM and the ilness seems to be caused by more genes it is really important to select the dogs (lines) where there are not only carriers but also dogs which shows symptoms of DM - especially in the early age.

[Hanka]

I had seen a few old wolfdogs with problems in movement. But- of course- not so big like on videos.
But I think it is writting about nothing.............
Lorry, Satu, I cross fingers for your dogs.

[woland77]

Originally Posted by z Peronówki

Best example - Baron....
His father Gaius was living 14 years and till the end he was pretty good moving dog ("extremly good moving" when we take into consideration his age). When he was over 10 years old he was still moving much better than many YOUNGER (5-6 years old) dogs which we can see running in the show rings...
Dia Kollárov dvor at the age of 10 years is moving like young female and she is still alive (trying to beat Gaius? )..

Sorry Margo, this example has no basis, has no sense.
Baron is DM/DM; it is possible, it is probable, it is plausible that he has inherited the genes from two heterozygous ... considering that the homozygous can't show symptoms (and these symptoms are in no way connected to the physical deterioration caused by age old), I do not understand what's so strange (enough to be cited as an example) if Dia and Gaius have a good movement despite his age, and his son Baron found to be homozygous DM / DM.

[yukidomari]

Just a simple question, but could it be that dogs that are not DM/DM yet still have movement problems, be afflicted with another unrelated and yet unknown degenerative disease? Another disease which works through another biological mechanism.

If so, wouldn't it be conservatively prudent to say that dogs which are DM/DM as well as dogs with hence so far undiagnosed condition are both at risk for some type of degenerative condition, and both at risk to pass those genes, known and unknown to litters?

Are the two conditions interchangeable, and if not, can't they be approached as two different 'illnesses', so to speak?

[z Peronówki]

Originally Posted by woland77

Sorry Margo, this example has no basis, has no sense.
Baron is DM/DM; it is possible, it is probable, it is plausible that he has inherited the genes from two heterozygous ... considering that the homozygous can't show symptoms (and these symptoms are in no way connected to the physical deterioration caused by age old), I do not understand what's so strange (enough to be cited as an example) if Dia and Gaius have a good movement despite his age, and his son Baron found to be homozygous DM / DM.

Nothing is strange.... Of course it is possible that Gaius and Dia are "only" carriers... I know it...

The point is something else - that after all the speaks, days of disscusion we came again to the very old rule which so many breeders use: to look on the dogs and their offsprings - to evaluate "general health" of a line and not (only) on the health results of one or two dogs...

Because if we will take into consideration only one result we can land in a bigger troubles than only DM...

Some breeder took part in the witch hunt and they decided to make the 'political correct' litters... They have carriers females (sometimes females "at risk"). Because they decided to make the DM-result the ONLY selection for their litters - look what happend...
One kennel get litter of 3 puppies, one died, one in untypical, one is OK... But great - the only normal one which seems to be a normal wolfdog is only "carrier"... Maybe it is political correct litter but I will not take such puppy even for free... (as it seems the puppies had several other health problems).
Let's take the another breeder who took DM-free stud dog - the only tested in her country but with look and body of a german shepherd.... The puppies already now do not move typical - they move like GSD - sad look...
Another case of breeder who was "affraid" to use "carrier" - instead of it she used "N/N" (free) dog which.... had already serious problems to move at the age of 2 years.... The new puppy owners will be for sure happy that their puppies will not have problems with movement at the age of 10-14 years old but... they can get the problems typical for the father at the age of 2 years....
(I changed some facts in order not to blame any breeders but to talk about the problematic)

Look - I'm really for the tests. And I'm for the selection. But I see that some breeders are starting to drive crazy... Some start to think to sterylize really good dogs only because they are carriers. Another in the name of DM-selection make the most stupid litters a person can do... And they would not make such mistakes if they really would take in the consideration ALL the possible risks...

We want to make selection for DM.... but at the moment what we are getting in many cases are litters where INSTEAD of DM genes we get toons of different problems and degenerations which are also influencing the movement of the dogs... Problems which appear MUCH FASTER than the DM-problems....

So my question is one more time the same: how it looks with the DM problems? How many tested dogs (DM/DM) are really ill? How it looks with this problem in the Czech Republic - how many dogs were put down because of it? Which lines?
I do not ask about "maybe dogs" as the last two examples of "for sure ill" dogs I get are DM/N!!!!

It is really important to know it... I just wonder about aversion of some people to publish some pure facts... Why it is so top secret? Because there are so many dogs? In this case we should be informed which dogs/lines are "black listed". Or maybe they do not know any other ill dogs - in this case we must start a work to look if maybe we need another tests... Or maybe take into consideration that by Wolfdogs it is much more complicated...?

[Vaiva]

Originally Posted by z Peronówki

dog which.... had already serious problems to move at the age of 2 years....

And what are the reasons of these moving problems? Are they because of anatomical structure? Or is it a disease?

[*Satu]

Can be wrong anathomy, physical inactivity or diseases DM, Spondylosis, Ataxia...

But true is if we take all carriers away from breeding we can have more serious illness.

[FreierFranke]

At the moment, the witch-hunt to watch following: There are almost only used male dogs with N/N.

Here again the implications for breeding:

Maybe about 25% of dogs have DM / DM. Then about 20% of these will go out of the breed.

Maybe about 50% of dogs have DM/N. Then maybe only 10% of these will go out of the breed (mostly males)

The remaining 25% of all dogs go into breed, but is often taken (mostly males)

Without the shift to dogs with N/N, we already have a loss of about 30% of all dogs. Then the shift to the N/N -> We have a loss of between 20 to 40% will have the genetic diversity,… if it goes on!

This is just an example. Everyone can expect for yourself.

[Sherdor]

Originally Posted by *Satu

After the tests, the sale of puppies is not easy.

True. Need a lot of arguments.

Originally Posted by *Satu

Who wants a carrier?

Most of petdog owner if you inform them well and tell them the true...
99 % of the owners of my puppies... so it is ok.

I just only told them "I made the test, and i know i am one of the only one who do it... so the results are there... Which warrantly would you have with the most of breeder whom don't do the test ?"

Originally Posted by *Satu

Others understand the tests to be only one tool in breeding.

Others breeders or dog owners are afraid of being blacklisted. (I already have a bad reputation and we have only ill dogs)

Jealousy is a secondary emotion and typically refers to the negative thoughts and feelings of insecurity, fear, and anxiety over an anticipated loss of something that the person values, particularly in reference to a human connection. (from Wikipedia)

The jealousy is, i suppose, the main reason that people give you a bad reputation, and put you in blacklist... even you know you work hard and in the good way.

"Make you duty to the breed as honest people would make it...", a safe way to think for me.

Originally Posted by *Satu

But true is if we take all carriers away from breeding we can have more serious illness.

Totally agree with you.

I am experimenting some problems with N/N puppies, very weak...

I would highly prefer it is carrier... if better health of course !!