Anyone have experience with a purebred wolf?

hanninadina · 02-01-2011, 22:43

A coyote is not a wolf!!!!

A wolf in capitivity is not a wolf in the wild!!!

A "hybrid" is not so much different to a wolf or what do you think is a F 1 90 %? It is always a matter of genes. I know F 2 which are like dogs and I know F 4 who are like wolf. So laws are funny because they have nothing in common with genes. Modern scientific did not make their "pawz" in actual laws. So they are werth nothing!

Have fun.

Christian

saschia · 02-01-2011, 23:59

Lunas Mom, but today's wolves are not ancestors of dogs. They evolved from the same ancestors, under the influence of their respective habitats, which included men, for the wolves usually as competitors or even as hunters. And todays populations of wolves are mostly small scraps that remained after centuries-long pressure of men trying to completely abolish them. Last couple of centuries, the selection on wolves was very hard, especially on their behavior.

hanninadina · 03-01-2011, 00:12

What are you talking about Saschia? In italy for example are about 1.000 wolves and about 1.000.000 wild living dogs. Some of the wolves mixe together with some dogs and these hybrids live in the villages and with people! And some of them recrosses with wolves again. That is one reason why in italy live about 250 black wolves. You know this research from 2008 that the black color in wolves come from dogs?

In spain is the same, in greece, slovenia and bulgary.

That is nature!!!!

saschia · 03-01-2011, 01:04

And? Do you want to say that those wolves are the same as there were before dogs were domesticated?

The black color in wolves is from dogs - also in North Americas. The change is very old and probably origined independently a couple of times. So you actually cannot say that it did not originate in wolves too, but that was not the meaning of my previous post. The meaning was that you will never get to know the behavior of dog's ancestor from the behavior of recent, captured wolves. Not that is not a valid interest, but my opinion is, if someone wants to study wolves or coyotes in capture, one should be a part of a project, and not torment one wolf (or even a couple) by conditions a single human being is able to provide. There are too many wolves living in enclosures to add to that number.

Gypsy Wolf · 03-01-2011, 23:20

Yes, coyotes are not wolves. I was mentioning that I like coyotes and am interested in studying them.
And genetics tell us that today's domestic dogs ARE descended from wolves - they are basically genetically-manipulated, neo-natized Eurasian wolves. In fact, there is no genetic way to distinguish wolves and dogs, which is why their scientific classification is now CANIS LUPUS FAMILIARIS.
Also WRONG that there is "no difference" between a hybrid (any content) and a pure wolf. Because we do not know the EXACT modes of inheritance for genetics, if it has "dog" genetics - however small - it is not necessarily going to be just like a "pure" wolf. I am not interested in dealing with dog genetics when it comes to studying behavior.
And for those interested in furthering their understanding of genetic manipulation... look up the Balyeav fox experiments.... wild foxes raised for their fur and in just a couple of generations where the breeder selected for "tameness" and suddenly they were being born with patchy fur, curled tails and droopy ears - all WILD fox genetics - but nothing like the original foxes trapped in the wild for the experiment. Part of why I want to study the "original" material.
I find it interesting how polarizing this discussion is for people - it shows a passionate love of the species. That is also a large part of why I am interested in studying them. Interesting that I do not see anyone here protesting the other people who study the species... and we have learned a great deal recently from several captive wolf studies (I believe it was a German or Swiss University conducting the behavioral studies) regarding their problem-solving abilities, etc. My interest is in furthering knowledge in just that venue, so that we not only learn more out Canis lupus lupus but also canis lupus familiaris...

yukidomari · 03-01-2011, 23:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lunas Mom

Interesting that I do not see anyone here protesting the other people who study the species... and we have learned a great deal recently from several captive wolf studies (I believe it was a German or Swiss University conducting the behavioral studies) regarding their problem-solving abilities, etc.

The difference is that as a university or other large organization, they theoretically have more resources than a single person does in conducting useful research, both in contacts and financial resources.

And with the backing of a university, discoveries and observations are more acceptable, more able to be useful, believable, and verifiable.. not merely one person's experience and and observations. Unless a person has had a long and storied reputation (say someone like Diane Fossey or Jane Goodall, and even their methodology is contested), personal observation is not likely meaningful to the body of knowledge in general. ..

saschia · 03-01-2011, 23:39

I don't protest projects, because I know that to get a grant for it, you need to prove that the animals will not suffer by your research. Ditto for publishing - no self-respecting opublisher would accept paper where accordance to animal handling practices was not stated. I would oppose any individualistic project that would use wolves from commercial breeders.

And before you start arguing with people that did behavior research on their own wolf packs, than my argument is - 1. it is a pack, not individual wolf, 2. if the wolves were bred (produced) for the purpose then I cannot accept it as correct practice.

I would strongly recommend you to join a shelter or refugee or things like that, you'll have my moral support and a piece of envy too ;o)

Now I am going to study the ontogeny of social behavior in my very own pack of Descendants of Wolves (that's the English translation of my kennel name for those here who don't speak Slovak) ;o) Brown barked at me yesterday and succeeded to howl puppy-style today.

Gypsy Wolf · 04-01-2011, 00:35

As I stated in an earlier post, my first step is volunteering at a refuge. I have no desire to get in over my head. Remember, this has been something I have been wanting to do for almost 2 decades...
And the primatologists mentioned (Fossey, et al) who did their ground-breaking research BECAME well-respected AFTER they decided to say "screw it" to the non-believers and just did as they felt right - something that I may do in the future.
It seems those scientific mavericks have brought a lot to the study of Ethology, so who is to say that I could not? Simply because I am not "known" or "funded" right now? And simply because the universities get funding, does NOT mean they are any better - or do anything more humanely - that I would - I have seen it before.
I have followed very talented dog trainers who have specifically learned training through their interaction and understanding of wolf behavior - on a personal level. Bashkim Dibra and his wolf Mariah come to mind. I feel he brought a lot to dog training through his knowledge, and if I were able to do the same, it would be more than woth it. Jeez, it would be more than worth it for me to have that experience, whether I write a book or not...
Just because I am not part of a university (though perhaps I could see if UFL would mind my doing a doctorate on the subject) does not mean I should be barred from learning this way simply because it is less "acceptable" to society?
As I had mentioned before, I am also interested in studying coyote behavior - I am not looking for funding to go and research them in the field - does it make my observing them wrong? Or less acceptable? And to whom? Again, I am not interested in reproducing the results in a lab - Ethologists don't do that, but they trust each other's research - even though most hard-core scientists would consider it anecdotal. Does that make it less valuable?
I read "anecdotal" stuff all the time - one of my favorite books is about Charley the coyote (Shreve Stockton's book The Daily Coyote) as well as Farley Mowat's Never Cry Wolf. Are they "science"? Not really. They are excellent insights into ethological studies of the species - even if they aren't reproducible, they are no doubt vauable to those interested in behavior... who is to say I wouldn't be the next Farley Mowat? We all start somewhere...

02-01-2011, 23:59	#2
saschia Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Bratislava Posts: 936	Lunas Mom, but today's wolves are not ancestors of dogs. They evolved from the same ancestors, under the influence of their respective habitats, which included men, for the wolves usually as competitors or even as hunters. And todays populations of wolves are mostly small scraps that remained after centuries-long pressure of men trying to completely abolish them. Last couple of centuries, the selection on wolves was very hard, especially on their behavior. __________________ Saschia (Sasa Zahradnikova) http://www.chiens-loup-tchecoslovaqu...ei-et-damon.ws

03-01-2011, 01:04	#4
saschia Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Bratislava Posts: 936	And? Do you want to say that those wolves are the same as there were before dogs were domesticated? The black color in wolves is from dogs - also in North Americas. The change is very old and probably origined independently a couple of times. So you actually cannot say that it did not originate in wolves too, but that was not the meaning of my previous post. The meaning was that you will never get to know the behavior of dog's ancestor from the behavior of recent, captured wolves. Not that is not a valid interest, but my opinion is, if someone wants to study wolves or coyotes in capture, one should be a part of a project, and not torment one wolf (or even a couple) by conditions a single human being is able to provide. There are too many wolves living in enclosures to add to that number. __________________ Saschia (Sasa Zahradnikova) http://www.chiens-loup-tchecoslovaqu...ei-et-damon.ws

03-01-2011, 23:39	#7
saschia Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Bratislava Posts: 936	I don't protest projects, because I know that to get a grant for it, you need to prove that the animals will not suffer by your research. Ditto for publishing - no self-respecting opublisher would accept paper where accordance to animal handling practices was not stated. I would oppose any individualistic project that would use wolves from commercial breeders. And before you start arguing with people that did behavior research on their own wolf packs, than my argument is - 1. it is a pack, not individual wolf, 2. if the wolves were bred (produced) for the purpose then I cannot accept it as correct practice. I would strongly recommend you to join a shelter or refugee or things like that, you'll have my moral support and a piece of envy too ;o) Now I am going to study the ontogeny of social behavior in my very own pack of Descendants of Wolves (that's the English translation of my kennel name for those here who don't speak Slovak) ;o) Brown barked at me yesterday and succeeded to howl puppy-style today. __________________ Saschia (Sasa Zahradnikova) http://www.chiens-loup-tchecoslovaqu...ei-et-damon.ws

02-01-2011, 22:43	#1
hanninadina Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 2,466	A coyote is not a wolf!!!! A wolf in capitivity is not a wolf in the wild!!! A "hybrid" is not so much different to a wolf or what do you think is a F 1 90 %? It is always a matter of genes. I know F 2 which are like dogs and I know F 4 who are like wolf. So laws are funny because they have nothing in common with genes. Modern scientific did not make their "pawz" in actual laws. So they are werth nothing! Have fun. Christian

03-01-2011, 00:12	#3
hanninadina Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 2,466	What are you talking about Saschia? In italy for example are about 1.000 wolves and about 1.000.000 wild living dogs. Some of the wolves mixe together with some dogs and these hybrids live in the villages and with people! And some of them recrosses with wolves again. That is one reason why in italy live about 250 black wolves. You know this research from 2008 that the black color in wolves come from dogs? In spain is the same, in greece, slovenia and bulgary. That is nature!!!!

03-01-2011, 23:20	#5
Gypsy Wolf Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Florida & Minnesota U.S. Posts: 252	Yes, coyotes are not wolves. I was mentioning that I like coyotes and am interested in studying them. And genetics tell us that today's domestic dogs ARE descended from wolves - they are basically genetically-manipulated, neo-natized Eurasian wolves. In fact, there is no genetic way to distinguish wolves and dogs, which is why their scientific classification is now CANIS LUPUS FAMILIARIS. Also WRONG that there is "no difference" between a hybrid (any content) and a pure wolf. Because we do not know the EXACT modes of inheritance for genetics, if it has "dog" genetics - however small - it is not necessarily going to be just like a "pure" wolf. I am not interested in dealing with dog genetics when it comes to studying behavior. And for those interested in furthering their understanding of genetic manipulation... look up the Balyeav fox experiments.... wild foxes raised for their fur and in just a couple of generations where the breeder selected for "tameness" and suddenly they were being born with patchy fur, curled tails and droopy ears - all WILD fox genetics - but nothing like the original foxes trapped in the wild for the experiment. Part of why I want to study the "original" material. I find it interesting how polarizing this discussion is for people - it shows a passionate love of the species. That is also a large part of why I am interested in studying them. Interesting that I do not see anyone here protesting the other people who study the species... and we have learned a great deal recently from several captive wolf studies (I believe it was a German or Swiss University conducting the behavioral studies) regarding their problem-solving abilities, etc. My interest is in furthering knowledge in just that venue, so that we not only learn more out Canis lupus lupus but also canis lupus familiaris...

04-01-2011, 00:35	#8
Gypsy Wolf Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Florida & Minnesota U.S. Posts: 252	As I stated in an earlier post, my first step is volunteering at a refuge. I have no desire to get in over my head. Remember, this has been something I have been wanting to do for almost 2 decades... And the primatologists mentioned (Fossey, et al) who did their ground-breaking research BECAME well-respected AFTER they decided to say "screw it" to the non-believers and just did as they felt right - something that I may do in the future. It seems those scientific mavericks have brought a lot to the study of Ethology, so who is to say that I could not? Simply because I am not "known" or "funded" right now? And simply because the universities get funding, does NOT mean they are any better - or do anything more humanely - that I would - I have seen it before. I have followed very talented dog trainers who have specifically learned training through their interaction and understanding of wolf behavior - on a personal level. Bashkim Dibra and his wolf Mariah come to mind. I feel he brought a lot to dog training through his knowledge, and if I were able to do the same, it would be more than woth it. Jeez, it would be more than worth it for me to have that experience, whether I write a book or not... Just because I am not part of a university (though perhaps I could see if UFL would mind my doing a doctorate on the subject) does not mean I should be barred from learning this way simply because it is less "acceptable" to society? As I had mentioned before, I am also interested in studying coyote behavior - I am not looking for funding to go and research them in the field - does it make my observing them wrong? Or less acceptable? And to whom? Again, I am not interested in reproducing the results in a lab - Ethologists don't do that, but they trust each other's research - even though most hard-core scientists would consider it anecdotal. Does that make it less valuable? I read "anecdotal" stuff all the time - one of my favorite books is about Charley the coyote (Shreve Stockton's book The Daily Coyote) as well as Farley Mowat's Never Cry Wolf. Are they "science"? Not really. They are excellent insights into ethological studies of the species - even if they aren't reproducible, they are no doubt vauable to those interested in behavior... who is to say I wouldn't be the next Farley Mowat? We all start somewhere...