Puppy in California

yukidomari · 31-12-2010, 07:33

Congrats on the invite, Pete @ Blusteel!

Additionally,

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lunas Mom

Yukodomari, I have attended a multitude of Breeder's Symposiums both at the University of Pennsylvania and University of Florida and HD is described as a multi-factorial issue. Yes, genetics play a big part, but environment and nutrition do, too. A pup with the best genetics can develop HD from inappropriate environment (slick kennel surface) or bad nutrition (puppy food which has an inappropriate calcium to phosphorous ratio and often too much protein as well as unbalanced raw diet). ......There is a lot of "anecdotal" stuff out there online, too - ask the Dane people about the evils of puppy food! -

I did go to some UPenn seminars on HD since one of our dogs has pretty severe HD... it is multi faceted, of course. Just one thing about "puppy food" and giant breeds - I disagree wholeheartedly with the old practice of switching puppies to 'adult' food at 4 months... the problem is, as you say, Cals/Phos ratio, not the additional fat or protein in puppy food. In fact recent published reports confirm that high protein is not the cause for things like irregular rapid growth.

In "Relationship of Nutrition to Developmental Skeletal Disease in Young Dogs" by Daniel C. Richardson & Phillip W. Toll

(emphasis added are mine)

Unlike other species, protein excess has not been demonstrated to negatively affect calcium metabolism or skeletal development in dogs. Protein deficiency, however, has more impact on the developing skeleton. In Great Dane puppies, a protein level of 14.6% (dry matter basis) with 13% of the dietary energy derived from protein can result in significant decreases in bodyweight and plasma albumin and urea concentrations.9,10 The minimum adequate level of dietary protein depends on digestibility, amino acids, and their availability from protein sources. A growth food should contain > 22% protein (dry matter basis) of high biologic value...

Often puppies are switched from growth to maintenance-type foods to avoid calcium excess and skeletal disease. However, because some maintenance foods have much lower energy density than growth foods, the puppy must consume more dry matter volume to meet its energy requirement. If the calcium levels are similar (dry matter basis) between the two foods, the puppy will actually consume more calcium when fed the maintenance food. This point is exemplified in the case of switching a 15-week-old, 15-kg male Rottweiler puppy from a growth food containing, on an as fed b asis, 4.0 kcal/g metabolizable energy and 1.35% calcium (1.5% on a dry matter basis) to a maintenance food containing the same amount of calcium but at a lower, 3.2 kcal/g energy density. The puppy would require approximately 1,600 kcal/day. In order to meet this energy need the puppy would consume approximately 400g of the growth food (containing 5.4g of calcium) vs. 500g of the maintenance food (containing approximately 6.7g of calcium).

Out of all grain free food I know of, the only one with appropriate Cal/Phos for puppies are Orijen and Acana.. even the ones like Taste of the Wild that claim to be "all life breeds" have calcium and phosphorus levels that exceed what I find acceptable and acceptable by published reports.

The problem is finding a correct food with correct cals/phos, not that puppy food is inherently bad for giant growing puppies. In fact many foods marketed as "puppy food" probably don't meet the appropriate levels, either. Suffice to say that adult foods generally have inappropriate C/P levels for puppies, too. A mentor/breeder with Great Danes as well as friends showing Mastiffs have similarly reflected these ideas - and for them, keeping a puppy on an appropriate puppy food is recommended until at least the giant breed is done growing, at least around 1 year old if not more.

Gypsy Wolf · 31-12-2010, 07:59

Well we can agree to disagree. I have been "in dogs" professionally since 1991, and base my opinions on not only emerging science, but what I have seen with my own eyes. Dogs presenting with Pano due to Puppy food, switched to Adult or even a Senior formula and seeing the disease resolve, not to mention the other growth disturbances I have personally seen in dogs raised on Puppy food, like severe "Eastie-Westie" fronts. You can diagnose E-W fronts due to nutrition vs. genetics by picking the dog up behind the elbows and letting the front legs dangle. If they hang straight but go E-W on the floor, it is nutritional. If they hang E-W it's genetic.
Scientific studies throughout have brought in cal-phos and protein-fat ratios to the table as reasons - regardless of the mechanism, I have seen it time and again.
It is likely that some of the pet food companies have made steps to help regulate growth through large breed formulas, but I don't necessarily trust them. I know of vets who see a Dane come in and their first thought is "cha-ching!" - yes, go ahead and feed puppy - I will tell you to switch once you present with Pano and later, bloat...
I never feed Puppy at all - simply Adult formulas. I stay away from crazy high protein level foods (like Evo) until the pup is at least 12 months old and make sure that chicken fat is not in the top 4 ingredients if I can help it, as it has been linked to bloat.
I also take care to keep them lean, no "pounding" (running a distance or jumping a lot) on the joints until they are 24 months old, and I exercsie them moderately.
It has worked well for me - none of my large breed dogs have ever had an issue - all have xrayed as good as, or better, than their parents, and so far the few pups I have produced have also followed suit.
Everyone raises their dog(s) as they see fit. What works for one may not work for another - even individual metabolism is different - so there are no hard and fast rules - just what I have found to work for me.

yukidomari · 31-12-2010, 08:48

Yes, agree to disagree. I tend to view anecdotal evidence with a skeptical approach, being that they are unproven and not empirical. Everyone is different, as you say, though.

Gypsy Wolf · 31-12-2010, 08:58

I am just as skeptical about scientific research - many studies have been skewed so that the results look favorable to the funding party. I have been in human medicine my whole life (my parents are a cardiac surgeon and an Operating Room Registered Nurse and I am a Nationally Certified Surgical Technologist), and I have seen many, many studies being disproven, many new drugs being pushed based on skewed numbers, while cheap long-time standbys are ignored, even though they are the better choice, and patients DYING because of it.
Of all the things I have done in my life, I consider myself primarily an "Ethologist" - someone who studies animal behavior in their own environment - and this field is all anecdotal. Is it fair to say animals do not have "feelings" because we cannot prove it scientifically?
So, for me, I read the science, I listen to what others have experienced, but most of my beliefs are via my own eyes. Do I believe a study that someone may have skewed for their own benefit or my own eyes?

yukidomari · 31-12-2010, 09:11

Of course whenever business interests are involved you can get skewed results, even so called studies. Ever read some 'studies' (read: marketing) produced by Purina? Hilarious! That's why it's important to note the funding parties and if the study is conducted in a scientific way with things like reproducible results and peer review.

That doesn't discount science for me.. Simply how and why it is reported.

You cite being 'in dogs' for x years, where you work, etc, but I don't understand what that adds?

Anyway, I don't really want to argue, so ..

Happy new year and congrats on the Westminster invite too.

Gypsy Wolf · 31-12-2010, 09:32

I think there is a huge difference between say, having had a dog or two your whole life versus someone who has professional experience "in dogs"... for instance, I have personally trained hundreds of dogs of every breed (just about) and mix of breeds, with every sort of "past history" you can imagine. I cut my teeth on shelter dogs for the first 5 years I trained - and gained invaluable experience about aggressive behavior in the process. I was a Vet Tech for years - not only for a "regular" small animal vet, but for a canine dermatologist as well as an exotic vet. I also have been training and competing in AKC, UKC, schutzhund, IABCA for almost as long, earning titles, as well as dabbling in other sports like agility, herding, water work, seiger shows... from having so many contacts in all different breeds, venues, etc., you gain not only experience with your own dogs (or client dogs), but through learning from peers and mentors in the various fields.
I think there is something to be said for someone who has gotten invited to Eukanuba 3 times with 2 different dogs, has competed at Westminster 3 times, has put titles on not only my own dogs but client's dogs - you get to know a lot of folks, and if you are a total pain in the ass when it comes to picking people's brains (I love talking to judges, etc.) you learn a lot. Mind you, I didn't get into the above national events because I have money, either - I did it myself. Granted I have some nice dogs, but it is also hard work and experience that makes for a well-conditioned, well-behaved, professional dog out there in the ring.
I also am probably a little obsessive about learning everything possible... for instance, it was 15 years "in dogs" before I dared breed my own litter. Yes, I had whelped and raised litters for others, but it was not until I had what I thought was "enough" knowledge about my breed and bloodlines before I took the leap... 15 years of Breeders Symposiums, and I wasn't even a breeder yet!
But that's what I think "adds"... that I have a LOT of not only personal experience, but "inherited" experience through my mentors and peers... not just studies or things one might find on-line, but personal exposure - often my knowledge even has to be kept hush-hush because certain people do not want the "bad stuff" leaking out, but at least I get the benefit of knowing things that others don't...

yukidomari · 31-12-2010, 10:17

OK.

Vaiva · 31-12-2010, 10:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by yukidomari

Out of all grain free food I know of, the only one with appropriate Cal/Phos for puppies are Orijen and Acana.. even the ones like Taste of the Wild that claim to be "all life breeds" have calcium and phosphorus levels that exceed what I find acceptable and acceptable by published reports.

And I'll try to get my own benefit from this

Do you mean Orijen and Acana for puppies or regular foods?

(I skipped many chemistry lessons at school

)

Lunas mom, but modesty isn't your strongest feature, is it?

yukidomari · 31-12-2010, 10:43

Vaiva-If I do the conversion from % to grams, all Acana Provincial grain free has appropriate levels as well as all Orijen except the newest 'Red Meat' formula.

By the way, dry weight protein may seem high, but raw meat on a dry basis is comparable in protein content. The difference of course is water content.

Rona · 31-12-2010, 13:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vaiva

Lunas mom, but modesty isn't your strongest feature, is it?

This is purely cultural, Vaiva. Self-appreciation, very common in the USA, in Europe is considered a bit... weird

31-12-2010, 09:11	#5
yukidomari Moderator Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Los Angeles CA Posts: 847	Of course whenever business interests are involved you can get skewed results, even so called studies. Ever read some 'studies' (read: marketing) produced by Purina? Hilarious! That's why it's important to note the funding parties and if the study is conducted in a scientific way with things like reproducible results and peer review. That doesn't discount science for me.. Simply how and why it is reported. You cite being 'in dogs' for x years, where you work, etc, but I don't understand what that adds? Anyway, I don't really want to argue, so .. Happy new year and congrats on the Westminster invite too. Last edited by yukidomari; 31-12-2010 at 09:22.

31-12-2010, 07:59	#2
Gypsy Wolf Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Florida & Minnesota U.S. Posts: 252	Well we can agree to disagree. I have been "in dogs" professionally since 1991, and base my opinions on not only emerging science, but what I have seen with my own eyes. Dogs presenting with Pano due to Puppy food, switched to Adult or even a Senior formula and seeing the disease resolve, not to mention the other growth disturbances I have personally seen in dogs raised on Puppy food, like severe "Eastie-Westie" fronts. You can diagnose E-W fronts due to nutrition vs. genetics by picking the dog up behind the elbows and letting the front legs dangle. If they hang straight but go E-W on the floor, it is nutritional. If they hang E-W it's genetic. Scientific studies throughout have brought in cal-phos and protein-fat ratios to the table as reasons - regardless of the mechanism, I have seen it time and again. It is likely that some of the pet food companies have made steps to help regulate growth through large breed formulas, but I don't necessarily trust them. I know of vets who see a Dane come in and their first thought is "cha-ching!" - yes, go ahead and feed puppy - I will tell you to switch once you present with Pano and later, bloat... I never feed Puppy at all - simply Adult formulas. I stay away from crazy high protein level foods (like Evo) until the pup is at least 12 months old and make sure that chicken fat is not in the top 4 ingredients if I can help it, as it has been linked to bloat. I also take care to keep them lean, no "pounding" (running a distance or jumping a lot) on the joints until they are 24 months old, and I exercsie them moderately. It has worked well for me - none of my large breed dogs have ever had an issue - all have xrayed as good as, or better, than their parents, and so far the few pups I have produced have also followed suit. Everyone raises their dog(s) as they see fit. What works for one may not work for another - even individual metabolism is different - so there are no hard and fast rules - just what I have found to work for me.

31-12-2010, 08:48	#3
yukidomari Moderator Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Los Angeles CA Posts: 847	Yes, agree to disagree. I tend to view anecdotal evidence with a skeptical approach, being that they are unproven and not empirical. Everyone is different, as you say, though.

31-12-2010, 08:58	#4
Gypsy Wolf Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Florida & Minnesota U.S. Posts: 252	I am just as skeptical about scientific research - many studies have been skewed so that the results look favorable to the funding party. I have been in human medicine my whole life (my parents are a cardiac surgeon and an Operating Room Registered Nurse and I am a Nationally Certified Surgical Technologist), and I have seen many, many studies being disproven, many new drugs being pushed based on skewed numbers, while cheap long-time standbys are ignored, even though they are the better choice, and patients DYING because of it. Of all the things I have done in my life, I consider myself primarily an "Ethologist" - someone who studies animal behavior in their own environment - and this field is all anecdotal. Is it fair to say animals do not have "feelings" because we cannot prove it scientifically? So, for me, I read the science, I listen to what others have experienced, but most of my beliefs are via my own eyes. Do I believe a study that someone may have skewed for their own benefit or my own eyes?

31-12-2010, 09:32	#6
Gypsy Wolf Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Florida & Minnesota U.S. Posts: 252	I think there is a huge difference between say, having had a dog or two your whole life versus someone who has professional experience "in dogs"... for instance, I have personally trained hundreds of dogs of every breed (just about) and mix of breeds, with every sort of "past history" you can imagine. I cut my teeth on shelter dogs for the first 5 years I trained - and gained invaluable experience about aggressive behavior in the process. I was a Vet Tech for years - not only for a "regular" small animal vet, but for a canine dermatologist as well as an exotic vet. I also have been training and competing in AKC, UKC, schutzhund, IABCA for almost as long, earning titles, as well as dabbling in other sports like agility, herding, water work, seiger shows... from having so many contacts in all different breeds, venues, etc., you gain not only experience with your own dogs (or client dogs), but through learning from peers and mentors in the various fields. I think there is something to be said for someone who has gotten invited to Eukanuba 3 times with 2 different dogs, has competed at Westminster 3 times, has put titles on not only my own dogs but client's dogs - you get to know a lot of folks, and if you are a total pain in the ass when it comes to picking people's brains (I love talking to judges, etc.) you learn a lot. Mind you, I didn't get into the above national events because I have money, either - I did it myself. Granted I have some nice dogs, but it is also hard work and experience that makes for a well-conditioned, well-behaved, professional dog out there in the ring. I also am probably a little obsessive about learning everything possible... for instance, it was 15 years "in dogs" before I dared breed my own litter. Yes, I had whelped and raised litters for others, but it was not until I had what I thought was "enough" knowledge about my breed and bloodlines before I took the leap... 15 years of Breeders Symposiums, and I wasn't even a breeder yet! But that's what I think "adds"... that I have a LOT of not only personal experience, but "inherited" experience through my mentors and peers... not just studies or things one might find on-line, but personal exposure - often my knowledge even has to be kept hush-hush because certain people do not want the "bad stuff" leaking out, but at least I get the benefit of knowing things that others don't...

31-12-2010, 10:17	#7
yukidomari Moderator Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Los Angeles CA Posts: 847	OK.

31-12-2010, 10:43	#9
yukidomari Moderator Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Los Angeles CA Posts: 847	Vaiva-If I do the conversion from % to grams, all Acana Provincial grain free has appropriate levels as well as all Orijen except the newest 'Red Meat' formula. By the way, dry weight protein may seem high, but raw meat on a dry basis is comparable in protein content. The difference of course is water content.