To all friends - Page 2

michaelundinaeichhorn · 15-03-2002, 11:30

There is already a lot of very interesting research done about different dog
breeds and wolfs and their crossings by Erik Zimen and Dorith Feddersen-Petersen
in Kiel Germany. They´ve wrote both several books and papers about it and I
always found they helped me a lot in understanding my dogs. I would be very
interested in this paper when it is written in english ore german language,
unfortunally I don´t understand other languages well enough.
Greeting Ina

Villulv · 04-04-2002, 21:58

Hi,

I've tried VERY hard to get FACTS from the authorities in Sweden about this matter. The other day I found the current law that says that first and second generation wolves/dogs from outer EU is not allowed, others are not restricted. Today I got a mail from the Agricultural Department where they say that they will not allow dogs/wolves from first to fourth generation, but if you can present a pedegree from fifth generation and forth they regard it as dog and there is no restriction whatsoever but what is stated for import of dogs in general.

I have written back asking for the exact laws - hopefully I'll get them, but that is what I know for facts at the moment. Friends of mine here in Sweden and others who I know of "owns" mixed dogs of wolf and dog without any problems, and they have no pedegree as they are considered crossings, "streetdogs". Some of them are half wolves. Authorities are eager to spread that Sweden has very restricted laws about these dogs, but that is not true.

Are there any Saarlos or CSW of less "dog status" than fifth generaton? And doesn't they all have pedigree?

Sanna

Minna · 05-04-2002, 08:29

Hi Sanna,

Thanks a lot for your hard work on this issue; please, keep digging deeper so that we get these facts black and white from the authorities. Could it be that people in Sweden who are in charge (custom officers etc.) of this matter don't know the facts or misinterpret them on purpose ? In this case they would need to learn the truth ...

And Damaris, you asked about CsV's ears? Why some CsVs seem to have even bigger ears than the German Shepherds have. Well, I guess that the ears are not bigger than these GSD's ears were that were used to create a CsV. CsV has a different head form than GSD which makes their ears look bigger. It seems often that female CsVs have bigger ears than male dogs. It is because females have often a very slim head; males are more masculine and their head is broader and this makes the ears look smaller.

Regards, Minna

Villulv · 05-04-2002, 11:46

Yes - that's my opinion. Even the highest authorities such as th Agricultural Department who are in charge of these matters don=B4t know when I ask them. I have spent hours of a number of telephone calls and emails demanding facts in binding documents on this. Most of my mails are still unanswered. The ones answered directs me to some other person or authority, and when I call them they say very promply at first that "wolf hybrids are not allowed" and when I ask for written documents they can't present any. I have found several parliamentary documents where it says that they want to stop these dogs before something really bad happens, but still the only law I have found is the one saying that wolf pups or pups with one parent wolf are restricted, i e first and second generation. They don't even know where to begin searching for legislations! In the mail I got yesterday, the official says; "we consider" animals of up to 4th generation as too much wolf... but I sent immidiately a mail back to him asking for written laws instead of their "considerations". This was yesterday and I wait eagerly for an answer. The individuals I know personally with half wolf and others with part wolf are so hard for people in general to distinguish from any dog mixture that can appear that they could pass for any dog of unknown origin. The knowledge of the people of the authorities is no different from the knowledge of most people it seems. They wouldn't be able to distinguish the wolfdogs from any other dog if they saw them. I'll get back to you as soon as I get anything to report.

Sanna

Marja · 09-04-2002, 17:41

Hello Sanna,

Maybe it is best not to wake the "sleeping dogs! (that's a general attitude in Holland i sometimes think). Now it is still a grey aera and many people/dogs can get away with it that they have a half wolf/half dog. Once the authority must act officially on this isseu then there can be a not so good outcome for the wolfdogs. I know that is sounds redicilous but sometimes that is the way it goes. I can think of only one reason that it should be investigated and that is when there are serious problems with bite incidents from these wolfdogs. But i think that is not the case here. In my country most bite incidents are from golden retriever dogs...you know.. the ever kind and willing dog who comes in family homes because of that reason and then they don't have any knowledge of dogs and children for that matter. Well anyway, it just a remark on your very interesting mail!

best of luck,
Marja.

Villulv · 09-04-2002, 19:25

Exactly! When I ask them how I can be sure that "my crossdog of any origin" can pass for not being a wolfdog of less than 5 generetions, I get no answer... People has very little knowledge of whatever dogs , and like so the authorities.

In any case - those of you who are able to present a pedegree of 5th generation and forth - you cannot be stopped whatsoever in Sweden as long as you follow the regulations for any dog. That I have in writing from the man in charge in the Agricultural authorities. 5th generation and forth are considered as "100% dog"!

And what you write about Golden Retrievers - we have exactly the same story here in Sweden. I have seen statistics of dog bites from the hospitals in the whole country - Goldens tops them all..and just for the reasons you mentioned...sad. Families regard them as cute little living puppets and doesn=B4t realize they are hunting dogs who needs hard work and mental stimulance.

Sanna

15-03-2002, 11:30	#21
michaelundinaeichhorn Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Bad Dürkheim Posts: 2,249	To all friends There is already a lot of very interesting research done about different dog breeds and wolfs and their crossings by Erik Zimen and Dorith Feddersen-Petersen in Kiel Germany. They´ve wrote both several books and papers about it and I always found they helped me a lot in understanding my dogs. I would be very interested in this paper when it is written in english ore german language, unfortunally I don´t understand other languages well enough. Greeting Ina

04-04-2002, 21:58	#22
Villulv Junior Member Join Date: Jan 1970 Posts: 42	To Vuolle Hi, I've tried VERY hard to get FACTS from the authorities in Sweden about this matter. The other day I found the current law that says that first and second generation wolves/dogs from outer EU is not allowed, others are not restricted. Today I got a mail from the Agricultural Department where they say that they will not allow dogs/wolves from first to fourth generation, but if you can present a pedegree from fifth generation and forth they regard it as dog and there is no restriction whatsoever but what is stated for import of dogs in general. I have written back asking for the exact laws - hopefully I'll get them, but that is what I know for facts at the moment. Friends of mine here in Sweden and others who I know of "owns" mixed dogs of wolf and dog without any problems, and they have no pedegree as they are considered crossings, "streetdogs". Some of them are half wolves. Authorities are eager to spread that Sweden has very restricted laws about these dogs, but that is not true. Are there any Saarlos or CSW of less "dog status" than fifth generaton? And doesn't they all have pedigree? Sanna

05-04-2002, 08:29	#23
Minna Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 50	To Sanna, Damaris and every one Hi Sanna, Thanks a lot for your hard work on this issue; please, keep digging deeper so that we get these facts black and white from the authorities. Could it be that people in Sweden who are in charge (custom officers etc.) of this matter don't know the facts or misinterpret them on purpose ? In this case they would need to learn the truth ... And Damaris, you asked about CsV's ears? Why some CsVs seem to have even bigger ears than the German Shepherds have. Well, I guess that the ears are not bigger than these GSD's ears were that were used to create a CsV. CsV has a different head form than GSD which makes their ears look bigger. It seems often that female CsVs have bigger ears than male dogs. It is because females have often a very slim head; males are more masculine and their head is broader and this makes the ears look smaller. Regards, Minna

05-04-2002, 11:46	#24
Villulv Junior Member Join Date: Jan 1970 Posts: 42	To Minna and every one Yes - that's my opinion. Even the highest authorities such as th Agricultural Department who are in charge of these matters don=B4t know when I ask them. I have spent hours of a number of telephone calls and emails demanding facts in binding documents on this. Most of my mails are still unanswered. The ones answered directs me to some other person or authority, and when I call them they say very promply at first that "wolf hybrids are not allowed" and when I ask for written documents they can't present any. I have found several parliamentary documents where it says that they want to stop these dogs before something really bad happens, but still the only law I have found is the one saying that wolf pups or pups with one parent wolf are restricted, i e first and second generation. They don't even know where to begin searching for legislations! In the mail I got yesterday, the official says; "we consider" animals of up to 4th generation as too much wolf... but I sent immidiately a mail back to him asking for written laws instead of their "considerations". This was yesterday and I wait eagerly for an answer. The individuals I know personally with half wolf and others with part wolf are so hard for people in general to distinguish from any dog mixture that can appear that they could pass for any dog of unknown origin. The knowledge of the people of the authorities is no different from the knowledge of most people it seems. They wouldn't be able to distinguish the wolfdogs from any other dog if they saw them. I'll get back to you as soon as I get anything to report. Sanna

09-04-2002, 17:41	#25
Marja Junior Member Join Date: Jan 1970 Posts: 7	To Minna and every one Hello Sanna, Maybe it is best not to wake the "sleeping dogs! (that's a general attitude in Holland i sometimes think). Now it is still a grey aera and many people/dogs can get away with it that they have a half wolf/half dog. Once the authority must act officially on this isseu then there can be a not so good outcome for the wolfdogs. I know that is sounds redicilous but sometimes that is the way it goes. I can think of only one reason that it should be investigated and that is when there are serious problems with bite incidents from these wolfdogs. But i think that is not the case here. In my country most bite incidents are from golden retriever dogs...you know.. the ever kind and willing dog who comes in family homes because of that reason and then they don't have any knowledge of dogs and children for that matter. Well anyway, it just a remark on your very interesting mail! best of luck, Marja.

09-04-2002, 19:25	#26
Villulv Junior Member Join Date: Jan 1970 Posts: 42	To Minna, Marja and every one Exactly! When I ask them how I can be sure that "my crossdog of any origin" can pass for not being a wolfdog of less than 5 generetions, I get no answer... People has very little knowledge of whatever dogs , and like so the authorities. In any case - those of you who are able to present a pedegree of 5th generation and forth - you cannot be stopped whatsoever in Sweden as long as you follow the regulations for any dog. That I have in writing from the man in charge in the Agricultural authorities. 5th generation and forth are considered as "100% dog"! And what you write about Golden Retrievers - we have exactly the same story here in Sweden. I have seen statistics of dog bites from the hospitals in the whole country - Goldens tops them all..and just for the reasons you mentioned...sad. Families regard them as cute little living puppets and doesn=B4t realize they are hunting dogs who needs hard work and mental stimulance. Sanna