Rep z Pohranìení

[buidelwolf]

Paula, Thanks for the very nice video of Iran. He certainly has a great life with you, as he undoubtedly had with Margo! In appearance he might perhaps not be the most special, but he comes from a special line and it shows professionalism to use her. Good, having him as a breeding base in Brazil and fortunately we also have his beautiful offspring in Europe!

Pedrocalle:

But ... indeed there does not exist any dog that does not come from this line?

Nowadays, no, there is certainly no CSV without Rep in its pedigree (except the mixes….). Almost without exception even with a heavy dose.

Yukidomari:

the problem is not Rep but rather informed (or not informed) decisions on future breeding. In basic understanding of line-breeding or tightly in-bred lines, the problem is only that bad/unwanted traits have the ability to more quickly or severely manifest, but the same is true for good/wanted traits as well.

Regarding the last sentence: true but it’s a bit the opposite approach and some important preconditions are missing. Rep himself is not a problem indeed; like earlier stated, he’s been very important in settling important characteristics we have nowadays. The problem is that he was used too frequently and was mixed up too quickly in all lines and heavy inbreeding was severely and frequently practiced with him, while at the same time many CSV’s from those days with potention, simply faded away without offspring. The result was an irreversible narrowed gene pool with increasing average COI, with Rep prominently present in all CSV’s. Linebreeding (not inbreeding) as an instrument for settling preferred characteristics is to my opinion still a legitimate and effective method, if practised professionaly, occasionally, under strict conditions. Like if always soon outcrossing to almost unrelated dogs within the population follows to avoid negative recessive genes combining to homozygous with all its consequences. Outcrossing, with the correct meaning of it, isn’t possible anymore unfortunately within our race and therefore linebreeding should be undesired in order to protect the fragile genepool from further narrowing. So from this point of view it would perhaps be advisable using the last handful of CSV's with a low proportion of Rep, before they too fade away. Quite apart from all other conditions which one must take into account of course. Citing that the situation in other breeds is much worse is not an argument and is no reason to be not very careful and critical. Let us just learn from the mistakes made in numerous other breeds!

Back to the original topic Rep. The CSV Asta z Tondova CS (died 9 october 2002 at age 16 ½ years of age!), was a bitch with a COI below average and 0% inbreeding on Rep. He only occurs once in her full pedigree! Rep was only her great grandfather from fathers’ side. I unraveled some of her descendants and discovered some, probably still living today, with very low "Rep content":

Name CSV & % of Rep in COI (8 generations)
Edy od Buližníku 3,71%
Art Vlčí sen 4,22%
Urio du Clos des Deux Sapins 4,38%
Typhon du Clos des Deux Sapins 4,38%
Amarok Šedý chlup 4,60%

[Mikael]

Originally Posted by buidelwolf

Back to the original topic Rep. The CSV Asta z Tondova CS (died 9 october 2002 at age 16 ½ years of age!), was a bitch with a COI below average and 0% inbreeding on Rep. He only occurs once in her full pedigree! Rep was only her great grandfather from fathers’ side. I unraveled some of her descendants and discovered some, probably still living today, with very low "Rep content":

Name CSV & % of Rep in COI (8 generations)
Edy od Buližníku 3,71%
Art Vlčí sen 4,22%
Urio du Clos des Deux Sapins 4,38%
Typhon du Clos des Deux Sapins 4,38%
Amarok Šedý chlup 4,60%

Thanks Buidelwolf And don´t you just love elf I do

Best regards / Mikael

[yukidomari]

Originally Posted by buidelwolf

Linebreeding (not inbreeding) as an instrument for settling preferred characteristics is to my opinion still a legitimate and effective method, if practised professionaly, occasionally, under strict conditions

The thing is that there is no definitive notion of "linebreeding" or "inbreeding" - linebreeding is a form of inbreeding. And being that Rep is pretty solidly represented in almost every living CsV today, meaning all dogs are to some degree related to one another, 'inbreeding' is in fact still applicable. It's a term of relativity.

As I understand from US usage, "outcrossing" in the dog world means to breed to a dog of the same breed, from relatively unrelated lines. This is what I mean by saying this is not always the best breeding choice. Genetic diversity is important but must be weighed with all other factors as well.

As I have not so much experience with CsV so far, and only with other breeds, I can only say that some breeders who spend years, maybe decades, establishing "their line" find the use of an outcross - in some breed circles established as under ~%6 COI in 10 generations - risky in that it may dilute the traits in their lines and give puppies with unpredictable characteristics. Of course it is done, but only as carefully as tight linebreeding, too. Outcrossing doesn't fix everything, it helps some things, just like linebreeding doesn't fix everything, but helps some things.

Perhaps in a breed with a larger genetic pool, this is acceptable. But perhaps not, for, say CsV, you are right.

Originally Posted by buidelwolf

Name CSV & % of Rep in COI (8 generations)
Edy od Buližníku 3,71%
Art Vlčí sen 4,22%
Urio du Clos des Deux Sapins 4,38%
Typhon du Clos des Deux Sapins 4,38%
Amarok Šedý chlup 4,60%

Very interesting! Thanks for posting these!

[wolfin]

outcrossin used when in line who breeder have want put new dogs blood ( genes) later this 1 generation better breed back in linebreeding or inbreeding ( better when have III-IV generation. Later this dog if necesary can used to others outcros and moore moore moore- in all genetics and breeding book are this same information, only mas used this

[yukidomari]

Originally Posted by wolfin

outcrossin used when in line who breeder have want put new dogs blood ( genes) later this 1 generation better breed back in linebreeding or inbreeding ( better when have III-IV generation. Later this dog if necesary can used to others outcros and moore moore moore- in all genetics and breeding book are this same information, only mas used this

Thank you for the generational view on outcrossing and linebreeding!! It's something I overlooked but certainly makes a lot of sense.

[wolfin]

Originally Posted by yukidomari

Thank you for the generational view on outcrossing and linebreeding!! It's something I overlooked but certainly makes a lot of sense.

no problem - this are very quicly terminology about breeding, when read a book have moore info like inbreedings groupe ( I-II, I-III or III-III and moore)
this who I writte are only minimum info

[pedrocalle]

I want that it is known that this post lacks answers that have been started unilaterally by the moderator to create another opportune mas for him ¿ for what? Perhaps does it seem to him mas interesting to speak about his dog?

If this is a forum in which the moderators pueder to cut and to stick say it expressly to know which are the consequences of writing here.

[yukidomari]

Pedrocalle - I think it's just a matter of keeping the discussion on the original topic. This topic was about Rep, and all of the off-topic posts were moved to their own thread.

[elf]

Originally Posted by pedrocalle

I want that it is known that this post lacks answers

I have program which check in the DB, there is NOT a single living CVS without Rep blood. This had already been told here and in other posts.