What is an interesting pedigree?

[Hanka]

If all good member, all reproductors owner send info about theys dogs for You for new breeding plan, I know are send dogs and from Lithuania too. Why this dogs we not see in this plan? or this dogs are in new plan?

Here nobody send infos about new reproductors to breeding comission. We have list of new males, we make bonitations. So we need not some list somewhere on internet. It is not important. But comission find female for every(!!!) breeding male in Czech. We want use every male in every year. Of course, 99% males mate only 1 female/year. I think it is good, we need large genopool. but not in all cases it is possible: some male does not want female, female does not want male, etc....
Do you ask me why are not males from your country on czech breeding plan? Hi hi, don´t ask me and write this question to Dana. Offer her some "interest" male and wait....I think, she answers to everybody.Here you ask on bad place.....

[Hanka]

Daiva, only short info about mateing here in Czech from 2008 and 2009:
In these years was in breeding 50 reproductors. 35 reproductors mated 1x, 12 reproductors 2x and 3 reproductors 3x.
Here will (I hope) never situation, when champions will be fathers for example of 80% pups!!!!!
Leader of breeding try to choose female for every one male. and female for male, of course.

[wolfin]

Originally Posted by Hanka

If all good member, all reproductors owner send info about theys dogs for You for new breeding plan, I know are send dogs and from Lithuania too. Why this dogs we not see in this plan? or this dogs are in new plan?

Here nobody send infos about new reproductors to breeding comission. We have list of new males, we make bonitations. So we need not some list somewhere on internet. It is not important. But comission find female for every(!!!) breeding male in Czech. We want use every male in every year. Of course, 99% males mate only 1 female/year. I think it is good, we need large genopool. but not in all cases it is possible: some male does not want female, female does not want male, etc....
Do you ask me why are not males from your country on czech breeding plan? Hi hi, don´t ask me and write this question to Dana. Offer her some "interest" male and wait....I think, she answers to everybody.Here you ask on bad place.....

ok and now we see- who is who nice... I think in next time people not runn and make who CZ club want and not send info, when they have this antswer.
But i believe CZ club maybe make better breeding plan and moore interesing like this who now we see

[Morian]

hanka, may i ask a question too?
this breeding plan, groups etc - it's not more than just a recommendation for breeders (if i understood, nobody can ban "out of plan" mate). then isn't it more useful for the breed to create "antiplan" including list of lines, stud dogs etc which bear defects and health problems?
my english is not perfect too, but i hope you'll understand what i want to say.

[Hanka]

Daiva, Morian. This list is not breeding plane ). It is only list of males in groups. I wrote you, every breeder can speak about breeding plane.
Breeding plane is created every year fresh, for all males and females. Every breeder who ask leader of breeding can ask about it. Breeding plane is "idea" about target. And every year is created new plan of next parents ( pairs). And every breeder can speak about it, when he does not agree with something (for example male for female). In 100% of cases is some result, what is good for breeder and leader of breeding too. Every year are a few discussion with breeders about some second male. It is normal.
Morian- do you mean list of males, which can have some genetic problems? hi hi, make some and I think owners of males on list will kill you . Nobody will want to see own dog on this list. but- good idea.

[Morian]

hanka, will the kill me or not, but it must exist
you know that there are many different rules in many different countries. some countries even have no club = no special requirements for stud dogs. some breeders use it consciously, some breeders just don't know about it (for example - at us, in russia). it's another question why did they decide to breed...
so my next question is: are the people afraid to be killed or such list is just uncomfortable for the same breeders? it's very interesting because we all (except blind ones) can see what happens in some cases. i still mean stable defects and health problems
it doesn't matter - do i want to see my dog in this list etc. because unbiased assessment must exist too.

[Morian]

and one more question. what is the concept of breeding? where is selection? standard?.. i just can't understand. or clubs are afraid of angry owners?

[z Peronówki]

Originally Posted by Hanka

About THIS poland male on czech list: ask our leader of breeding Dana Matušincová. She explain you WHY is he on our list. I know- owner is not your friend, but it is not my problem.

Hanka, we don't need to ask Dana because we know exactly the answer... Simply said it is not as you wrote:

Originally Posted by Hanka

I will be happy if I will see there some good male from some good and health group. I will use him I promise....

You are NOT looking for GOOD and HEALTHY dogs from HEALTHY groups. There are many dogs like it in Poland. Some even without any offsprings.
No, you decided to put on the list only a "strange" dog comming from a line with much higher percentage of dysplasia than by other stud dogs here because this line is "unique" for you and it it is so because his group was decimated by bad hip results and body deformations and only few dogs from this line were able to get breeding rights.

So you put a dogs much worser than other stud dogs here EXACTLY because it is not from the HEALTHY line. If I as a breeder would like that you as Club will 'send me' female owners I should NOT breed healthy and good looking dogs but the most dyspaltic and degenerated... With the worsest exterier...

And it is so. And it is no wonder. There are many good, nice and healthy lines in Czech Republic. Healthy and nice means that many dogs are getting the breeding rights what make such good lines pretty common also by you. So you will not go abroad to use unique dog but comming from a bigger group. No, you will send only people to use the dogs from "dying" lines even if they are not typical and not from healthy line.

So it make no sence for any GOOD breeders to help you (I really DO NOT mean it on negative way!) because they can help you ONLY of their will start to use the worstest lines with the highest number of ilnesses and exterier faults. It means these which representants you need in CZ.
You really not not need more dogs comming from HEALTHY, GOOD lines because you have them already by you and some are still without any offsprings....

Originally Posted by Hanka

Margo, I started this my writting, because somebody here asked "what is interest" pedigree. I answered and I wrote about our system, about (for me) interest dogs.

There is a problem which was already mentioned by Koboldine.
Hanka, I think you mixed UNIQUE pedigree with INTERESTING pedigree... For the Czech 'small' breeding groups you need UNIQUE dogs and not necessarily INTERESTING.

Unique is a dog with seldom pedigree - comming usually from the "small" group. Sure there are still VERY FEW dogs which have unique but also GOOD and INTERESTING pedigree. But in the most cases "unique" are lines these which nobody want to use. Such dogs have UNINTERESTING pedigrees: with many ancestors with hip dysplasia, with bad exterier and bad characters. They are unique because nobody want to breed with such dogs.

And INTERESTING pedigree? First - CzW should look like Czechoslovakian Wolfdog. So I think it is hard to call a line of German Shepherd alike dogs a INTERESTING LINE of CZECHOSLOVIAKIAN WOLFDOG... Second - I don't think that pedigrees full of dogs with bad hips results can be considered as interesting, right....
So when we remove all lines of GSD looking dogs and dogs with bad health results we will have a group of dogs to choose from.

What is interesting? Depends what you are looking for.... If you are looking for a dog with INTERESTING working abilities. Or with INTERESTING ancestors. Or with high quality exterier.
Interesting will be a dog which will FULLY fulfil our requirements and and the same time will have the most "unique" pedigree from the all dogs we left for "last" selection.

Originally Posted by Hanka

Oh Margo, it is too long article for me. You know, groups was created many years ago, by Karel Hartl (?). I hope. So some question you must ask him. Not me )). We only continue in his work.

Hanka - it is alredy good answer. So the groups base on historical reasons.

Now the another question to the clubs

- You know the slovak lines are different. Do you consider the possibility to meet with the Slovak club and to prepare 'common' lines (I do not say that you have to follow all of them - just to write dow all possible lines which should be followed)? It can be made on a very easy way - if you would redefine the criterions for the groups as elf suggested and divide the dogs in lines of more recent dogs comming from CZ and SK. Such groups can be followed not only in CZ and SK but also in other countries (as the most dogs abroad were imported after 1995).
In such case every country can care for its "own" lines but at the same moment to follow the guidelines valid for the whole population.

So if there is the possiblity that both origin clubs will define for example 20 groups - Czech club will follow for example 8 of them, Slovaks 5, France and Italy also 5, Germany 3. Some lines will agree with each other. Some will be "specific" for a country.
Thanks to this we would not have the situation when in Czech Republic has 8 groups, Slovaks less and the rest of Wolfdogs are bred according no rules - pure chaos. But we would get 20 different lines. We can reach something what Slovak and Czech Club is not able to reach working alone and only for "themselves"...

[elf]

Originally Posted by Margo

Now the another question to the clubs

- You know the slovak lines are different. Do you consider the possibility to meet with the Slovak club and to prepare 'common' lines (I do not say that you have to follow all of them - just to write dow all possible lines which should be followed)? It can be made on a very easy way - if you would redefine the criterions for the groups as elf suggested and divide the dogs in lines of more recent dogs comming from CZ and SK. Such groups can be followed not only in CZ and SK but also in other countries (as the most dogs abroad were imported after 1995).
In such case every country can care for its "own" lines but at the same moment to follow the guidelines valid for the whole population.

So if there is the possiblity that both origin clubs will define for example 20 groups - Czech club will follow for example 8 of them, Slovaks 5, France and Italy also 5, Germany 3. Some lines will agree with each other. Some will be "specific" for a country.
Thanks to this we would not have the situation when in Czech Republic has 8 groups, Slovaks less and the rest of Wolfdogs are bred according no rules - pure chaos. But we would get 20 different lines. We can reach something what Slovak and Czech Club is not able to reach working alone and only for "themselves"...

I made some researches checking ancestors in all CSV pedigrees, I found again about how the "old groups" were built, it's the same method used but ancestors troncated at birth around 1980. I did the same with ancestors birth from severals dates (each year from 1980->2000), I put the files for you to check here: CSV Lines

I think we can start with 1990 file, and check if fulfill the needs, then makes some adjustments if needed.

I put 'weight' parameter in first column to let you see the relative importance between eachother dogs. From this list we can hopefully build new groups valid for every country.

[Hanka]

Hi Elf, if you will have some questions to me or about czech groups, write me email. I answer you. And what I will not know, I ask here "right persons"

[elf]

Thanks Hanka. I think we have the infos needed to build new groups, in the idea as Margo said, to have goups that can be followed in every country. Do you think CZ club can move in this direction ? Saschia what about SK club ?
Who is responsible for groups maintenance in each clubs ?

[wolfin]

Originally Posted by elf

Thanks Hanka. I think we have the infos needed to build new groups, in the idea as Margo said, to have goups that can be followed in every country. Do you think CZ club can move in this direction ? Saschia what about SK club ?
Who is responsible for groups maintenance in each clubs ?

Lithuanian dog I.
but... in others country breeder make self breeding plan without club and in this case not can say - "we have this and this and make this and this in ours land" when all breeder detision who want in theys breeding.
but info about dogs, bloods and line who are in country can say.
Lithuanian, Latvia, Estonia- I, Russian- Morian, Poland- Margo, others country not know who are people "poradca chovu"

[Vaiva]

Originally Posted by wolfin

Lithuanian dog I.
but... in others country breeder make self breeding plan without club and in this case not can say - "we have this and this and make this and this in ours land" when all breeder detision who want in theys breeding.
but info about dogs, bloods and line who are in country can say.
Lithuanian, Latvia, Estonia- I, Russian- Morian, Poland- Margo, others country not know who are people "poradca chovu"

Really? You mean, that in Lithuania other breeders make breeding plans with a club?

[ste]

Originally Posted by elf

Thanks Hanka. I think we have the infos needed to build new groups, in the idea as Margo said, to have goups that can be followed in every country. Do you think CZ club can move in this direction ? Saschia what about SK club ?
Who is responsible for groups maintenance in each clubs ?

Now the groups are made only considering "father line",this is more romantic than scientific... will they accept that new groups will be both with father and mother lines?

[Hanka]

Originally Posted by ste

Now the groups are made only considering "father line",this is more romantic than scientific... will they accept that new groups will be both with father and mother lines?

No. Lines are always only from father. From mother it is "family". For breeding are important almost only father "sides". We will not create some new lines, because new lines does not exist. We have old lines (from beggin of breed) and it is enough for future of breed.
But we have two list of females. In first we can see females in mother sides and in second in father sides. Males are only in father sides.
If you want see it, you can look here. But it is only in czech language. Look down on page:
http://wolfdog.wbs.cz/Soucasna-situa...hovu-v-CR.html