What is an interesting pedigree?

[elf]

Hmm... I feel for a while that there is a misrepresentation across people on what is a "line".

[Hanka]

Oh Margo, it is too long article for me. You know, groups was created many years ago, by Karel Hartl (?). I hope. So some question you must ask him. Not me )). We only continue in his work. Ask him why some groups exist, what was target of these groups, ...I think, he can explain you much , much.....
About THIS poland male on czech list: ask our leader of breeding Dana Matušincová. She explain you WHY is he on our list. I know- owner is not your friend, but it is not my problem.
Margo, I started this my writting, because somebody here asked "what is interest" pedigree. I answered and I wrote about our system, about (for me) interest dogs.
You come here and in first your thread you attack czech breeding. Sometimes I don´t understand why you do it. Belive me, "Pandora" is in every country. I know it. But: will we attack males from other countries? No...Why? Because we are not stupid.....It is not fair.
I will not continue in this confrontation tone, because I need not it, I don´t like it. I don´t like to read long articles and I don´t like to write looong article.
I write here because I want help to breeders, to breed.
And maybe is better when I forget this writting about czechoslovakian shepperd............

For other people: I spoke with leader of czech breeding Dana Matušincová. She agrees, she can help to give males from other countries to groups (like we have). But she does not speak english. So if somebody will want, can write me and I translate it for Dana.
I spoke with leader of czech club Karel Skoupy (kennel z Udoli ticha). He can help with groups too. He speaks english better than me ))
So if somebody wants folow czech groups, he can contact czech club.
But of course, every country can make own groups (if there is more males) and it can go to own way.......
All breeders on the World have only one target. To keep large genopool of our breed. And everybody can do a little for it when breeders will choose males not only for show titles.

[Hanka]

Daiva- sorry about late. This list is actual to February I think, there are not more males, which passed last two bonitations. When club will update it, I will have fresh list on my webpage too.
But now nobody worked on it, because people worked on documents for conferention. So we have a little late.

[Vaiva]

Originally Posted by Hanka

Margo, I started this my writting, because somebody here asked "what is interest" pedigree. I answered and I wrote about our system, about (for me) interest dogs.

So could you also answer what was really in the question? Would you choose a stud from a very rare line, but having some possible health, character, exterior problems? Or better not so "unique" but surely healthy, good-tempered, nice looking?

[wolfin]

Originally Posted by Hanka

Daiva- sorry about late. This list is actual to February I think, there are not more males, which passed last two bonitations. When club will update it, I will have fresh list on my webpage too.
But now nobody worked on it, because people worked on documents for conferention. So we have a little late.

thanks,
Hanka but when this others male from this example litter make all who mas have he be in this list?
or not better make only in this style - written only "B Sotis " and people can used dog who they like from litter B Sotis, not only this 2 male ( sory but bonitation have 3 male and one for him have better HD like one dog from this list )
ok ok I not atack this plan, only when I this make I change this Brian, Basco Sotis in "B Sotis"

this is my like genetic and breeder idea

[Hanka]

Hanka but when this others male from this example litter make all who mas have he be in this list? ---Daiva, I don´t understand....(these dogs are breeding dogs, the list is not important. But I don´t know if you ask it...)

Breeding comission write to breeder: "ideal is to use male XY, because..." But it is not dogma, Daiva. Every breeder can speak about (for him) better dog, brother.... The result can be compromis. But important is to comunicate with leader of breeding. Usually leader of breeding tell to breeder, what she waits from this litter, why comission choosed THIS male, what risiks can be there (illneses, dysplasy and everything what we know about parents.....) or what positiv we wait.......
But it is theory and nature is nature. Pups can be surprise for us )

[wolfin]

Originally Posted by Hanka

Hanka but when this others male from this example litter make all who mas have he be in this list? ---Daiva, I don´t understand....(these dogs are breeding dogs, the list is not important. But I don´t know if you ask it...)

ok - You have 3 dogs from B Sotis who have all who mas have for breeding, BUT in list are only 2 dogs. Why? why not can written B Sotis and end, but written dogs name.
Mybe for my dog who not are in list are better like dogs who you can see in this list

only this.

[wolfin]

oh, Hanka i forgot.

If all good member, all reproductors owner send info about theys dogs for You for new breeding plan, I know are send dogs and from Lithuania too. Why this dogs we not see in this plan? or this dogs are in new plan?

[Hanka]

About Tristan:
VII group because: his grand grand father (good word?) is Ajax Břevnovská stopa.
Usually are dogs in groups or lines from father. Father is there from his father,...etc. This grand grand...is in pedigree of male very often (or most often). But it is not only one view. This first reproductor must have perfect quality in something, he must be typicle in something. About Ajax and Alan Břevnovská stopa: here we look at thier quality, they was in breeding more than other related males.(Don´t forget, it was x years ago and in this time we had not much dogs for choosing. The breeders was happy when was in breeding 20 males!!!)..This group is a little different from other population. But it is not closed process. We can (maybe we must?) rebuild this group. Maybe to find some males from this line, which are in other countries, they are health, good, which can have quality pups,... And which are not in czech breeding in past.... (offsprings of exported pups-dogs)
I am very sorry, my english is not good and I can´t explain on 100% what I mean.
If you will want more info abou it, you must ask leader of our club )))

[Hanka]

If all good member, all reproductors owner send info about theys dogs for You for new breeding plan, I know are send dogs and from Lithuania too. Why this dogs we not see in this plan? or this dogs are in new plan?

Here nobody send infos about new reproductors to breeding comission. We have list of new males, we make bonitations. So we need not some list somewhere on internet. It is not important. But comission find female for every(!!!) breeding male in Czech. We want use every male in every year. Of course, 99% males mate only 1 female/year. I think it is good, we need large genopool. but not in all cases it is possible: some male does not want female, female does not want male, etc....
Do you ask me why are not males from your country on czech breeding plan? Hi hi, don´t ask me and write this question to Dana. Offer her some "interest" male and wait....I think, she answers to everybody.Here you ask on bad place.....

[Hanka]

Daiva, only short info about mateing here in Czech from 2008 and 2009:
In these years was in breeding 50 reproductors. 35 reproductors mated 1x, 12 reproductors 2x and 3 reproductors 3x.
Here will (I hope) never situation, when champions will be fathers for example of 80% pups!!!!!
Leader of breeding try to choose female for every one male. and female for male, of course.

[wolfin]

Originally Posted by Hanka

If all good member, all reproductors owner send info about theys dogs for You for new breeding plan, I know are send dogs and from Lithuania too. Why this dogs we not see in this plan? or this dogs are in new plan?

Here nobody send infos about new reproductors to breeding comission. We have list of new males, we make bonitations. So we need not some list somewhere on internet. It is not important. But comission find female for every(!!!) breeding male in Czech. We want use every male in every year. Of course, 99% males mate only 1 female/year. I think it is good, we need large genopool. but not in all cases it is possible: some male does not want female, female does not want male, etc....
Do you ask me why are not males from your country on czech breeding plan? Hi hi, don´t ask me and write this question to Dana. Offer her some "interest" male and wait....I think, she answers to everybody.Here you ask on bad place.....

ok and now we see- who is who nice... I think in next time people not runn and make who CZ club want and not send info, when they have this antswer.
But i believe CZ club maybe make better breeding plan and moore interesing like this who now we see

[Morian]

hanka, may i ask a question too?
this breeding plan, groups etc - it's not more than just a recommendation for breeders (if i understood, nobody can ban "out of plan" mate). then isn't it more useful for the breed to create "antiplan" including list of lines, stud dogs etc which bear defects and health problems?
my english is not perfect too, but i hope you'll understand what i want to say.

[Hanka]

Daiva, Morian. This list is not breeding plane ). It is only list of males in groups. I wrote you, every breeder can speak about breeding plane.
Breeding plane is created every year fresh, for all males and females. Every breeder who ask leader of breeding can ask about it. Breeding plane is "idea" about target. And every year is created new plan of next parents ( pairs). And every breeder can speak about it, when he does not agree with something (for example male for female). In 100% of cases is some result, what is good for breeder and leader of breeding too. Every year are a few discussion with breeders about some second male. It is normal.
Morian- do you mean list of males, which can have some genetic problems? hi hi, make some and I think owners of males on list will kill you . Nobody will want to see own dog on this list. but- good idea.

[Morian]

hanka, will the kill me or not, but it must exist
you know that there are many different rules in many different countries. some countries even have no club = no special requirements for stud dogs. some breeders use it consciously, some breeders just don't know about it (for example - at us, in russia). it's another question why did they decide to breed...
so my next question is: are the people afraid to be killed or such list is just uncomfortable for the same breeders? it's very interesting because we all (except blind ones) can see what happens in some cases. i still mean stable defects and health problems
it doesn't matter - do i want to see my dog in this list etc. because unbiased assessment must exist too.

[Morian]

and one more question. what is the concept of breeding? where is selection? standard?.. i just can't understand. or clubs are afraid of angry owners?

[z Peronówki]

Originally Posted by Hanka

About THIS poland male on czech list: ask our leader of breeding Dana Matušincová. She explain you WHY is he on our list. I know- owner is not your friend, but it is not my problem.

Hanka, we don't need to ask Dana because we know exactly the answer... Simply said it is not as you wrote:

Originally Posted by Hanka

I will be happy if I will see there some good male from some good and health group. I will use him I promise....

You are NOT looking for GOOD and HEALTHY dogs from HEALTHY groups. There are many dogs like it in Poland. Some even without any offsprings.
No, you decided to put on the list only a "strange" dog comming from a line with much higher percentage of dysplasia than by other stud dogs here because this line is "unique" for you and it it is so because his group was decimated by bad hip results and body deformations and only few dogs from this line were able to get breeding rights.

So you put a dogs much worser than other stud dogs here EXACTLY because it is not from the HEALTHY line. If I as a breeder would like that you as Club will 'send me' female owners I should NOT breed healthy and good looking dogs but the most dyspaltic and degenerated... With the worsest exterier...

And it is so. And it is no wonder. There are many good, nice and healthy lines in Czech Republic. Healthy and nice means that many dogs are getting the breeding rights what make such good lines pretty common also by you. So you will not go abroad to use unique dog but comming from a bigger group. No, you will send only people to use the dogs from "dying" lines even if they are not typical and not from healthy line.

So it make no sence for any GOOD breeders to help you (I really DO NOT mean it on negative way!) because they can help you ONLY of their will start to use the worstest lines with the highest number of ilnesses and exterier faults. It means these which representants you need in CZ.
You really not not need more dogs comming from HEALTHY, GOOD lines because you have them already by you and some are still without any offsprings....

Originally Posted by Hanka

Margo, I started this my writting, because somebody here asked "what is interest" pedigree. I answered and I wrote about our system, about (for me) interest dogs.

There is a problem which was already mentioned by Koboldine.
Hanka, I think you mixed UNIQUE pedigree with INTERESTING pedigree... For the Czech 'small' breeding groups you need UNIQUE dogs and not necessarily INTERESTING.

Unique is a dog with seldom pedigree - comming usually from the "small" group. Sure there are still VERY FEW dogs which have unique but also GOOD and INTERESTING pedigree. But in the most cases "unique" are lines these which nobody want to use. Such dogs have UNINTERESTING pedigrees: with many ancestors with hip dysplasia, with bad exterier and bad characters. They are unique because nobody want to breed with such dogs.

And INTERESTING pedigree? First - CzW should look like Czechoslovakian Wolfdog. So I think it is hard to call a line of German Shepherd alike dogs a INTERESTING LINE of CZECHOSLOVIAKIAN WOLFDOG... Second - I don't think that pedigrees full of dogs with bad hips results can be considered as interesting, right....
So when we remove all lines of GSD looking dogs and dogs with bad health results we will have a group of dogs to choose from.

What is interesting? Depends what you are looking for.... If you are looking for a dog with INTERESTING working abilities. Or with INTERESTING ancestors. Or with high quality exterier.
Interesting will be a dog which will FULLY fulfil our requirements and and the same time will have the most "unique" pedigree from the all dogs we left for "last" selection.

Originally Posted by Hanka

Oh Margo, it is too long article for me. You know, groups was created many years ago, by Karel Hartl (?). I hope. So some question you must ask him. Not me )). We only continue in his work.

Hanka - it is alredy good answer. So the groups base on historical reasons.

Now the another question to the clubs

- You know the slovak lines are different. Do you consider the possibility to meet with the Slovak club and to prepare 'common' lines (I do not say that you have to follow all of them - just to write dow all possible lines which should be followed)? It can be made on a very easy way - if you would redefine the criterions for the groups as elf suggested and divide the dogs in lines of more recent dogs comming from CZ and SK. Such groups can be followed not only in CZ and SK but also in other countries (as the most dogs abroad were imported after 1995).
In such case every country can care for its "own" lines but at the same moment to follow the guidelines valid for the whole population.

So if there is the possiblity that both origin clubs will define for example 20 groups - Czech club will follow for example 8 of them, Slovaks 5, France and Italy also 5, Germany 3. Some lines will agree with each other. Some will be "specific" for a country.
Thanks to this we would not have the situation when in Czech Republic has 8 groups, Slovaks less and the rest of Wolfdogs are bred according no rules - pure chaos. But we would get 20 different lines. We can reach something what Slovak and Czech Club is not able to reach working alone and only for "themselves"...

[Nebulosa]

Originally Posted by elf

Hmm... I feel for a while that there is a misrepresentation across people on what is a "line".

But its fine, important is that everyone is understanding each other.
The breed is still new, and the few "kennel line" existent mostly are chaotic, bad selected wich get recognized because its several serious defects looking at the standard.
So let it be.

[elf]

Originally Posted by Margo

Now the another question to the clubs

- You know the slovak lines are different. Do you consider the possibility to meet with the Slovak club and to prepare 'common' lines (I do not say that you have to follow all of them - just to write dow all possible lines which should be followed)? It can be made on a very easy way - if you would redefine the criterions for the groups as elf suggested and divide the dogs in lines of more recent dogs comming from CZ and SK. Such groups can be followed not only in CZ and SK but also in other countries (as the most dogs abroad were imported after 1995).
In such case every country can care for its "own" lines but at the same moment to follow the guidelines valid for the whole population.

So if there is the possiblity that both origin clubs will define for example 20 groups - Czech club will follow for example 8 of them, Slovaks 5, France and Italy also 5, Germany 3. Some lines will agree with each other. Some will be "specific" for a country.
Thanks to this we would not have the situation when in Czech Republic has 8 groups, Slovaks less and the rest of Wolfdogs are bred according no rules - pure chaos. But we would get 20 different lines. We can reach something what Slovak and Czech Club is not able to reach working alone and only for "themselves"...

I made some researches checking ancestors in all CSV pedigrees, I found again about how the "old groups" were built, it's the same method used but ancestors troncated at birth around 1980. I did the same with ancestors birth from severals dates (each year from 1980->2000), I put the files for you to check here: CSV Lines

I think we can start with 1990 file, and check if fulfill the needs, then makes some adjustments if needed.

I put 'weight' parameter in first column to let you see the relative importance between eachother dogs. From this list we can hopefully build new groups valid for every country.

[Hanka]

Hi Elf, if you will have some questions to me or about czech groups, write me email. I answer you. And what I will not know, I ask here "right persons"