DM is more spread in the breed then we thought!

Mikael · 15-06-2010, 23:31

Quote:

7 Affected (they have this disease)
17 Carrier (they carry the mutated gene)
6 Free

Is it possible that this first 30 tested dogs has a high number of carrier and affected dogs because of that the owners did suspect DM one there dog or in the line ???

And that the true number therefor will not be this high (bad) ???

Best regards / Mikael

hanninadina · 16-06-2010, 00:01

Or maybe they are mostly from one breeder? Are these results from germany, maybe from the german clubshow in the mid of may? I know that there were more than 10 csw from one german breeder....

michaelundinaeichhorn · 16-06-2010, 07:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikael

Is it possible that this first 30 tested dogs has a high number of carrier and affected dogs because of that the owners did suspect DM one there dog or in the line ???

And that the true number therefor will not be this high (bad) ???

Best regards / Mikael

The carriers and affected dogs are out of different lines and kennels we are awaiting more results the next weeks that are out of other lines. Due to the amount of tested dogs now that surely isn´t representativ the results may change but I doubt very much that there are no affected lines and that the numbers will change that much that a breeding program will be easy.
Again we need much more dogs out of much more countries!!!
And no, the owners didn´t test their dogs because they were suspecting these results (apart from two with ill dogs that were asked to do so) but because they are very engaged in the breeds benefit. We should be very aware that persons that try to fix the problem to lines or breeders, especially when they didn´t test their dogs, are not the ones we can count on in helping the breed.
To make breeding programs just for one distinctive mark and without knowing every aspect of this and scientific help is the quickest way to ruin a breed.
To ignore a problem and not to help by testing the dogs or sending in blood samples is almost as quick.

Ina

mijke · 16-06-2010, 09:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn

The carriers and affected dogs are out of different lines and kennels we are awaiting more results the next weeks that are out of other lines. Due to the amount of tested dogs now that surely isn´t representativ the results may change but I doubt very much that there are no affected lines and that the numbers will change that much that a breeding program will be easy.
Again we need much more dogs out of much more countries!!!
And no, the owners didn´t test their dogs because they were suspecting these results (apart from two with ill dogs that were asked to do so) but because they are very engaged in the breeds benefit. We should be very aware that persons that try to fix the problem to lines or breeders, especially when they didn´t test their dogs, are not the ones we can count on in helping the breed.
To make breeding programs just for one distinctive mark and without knowing every aspect of this and scientific help is the quickest way to ruin a breed.
To ignore a problem and not to help by testing the dogs or sending in blood samples is almost as quick.

Ina

I agree 100% with this!!

On the Dutch forum was already more info about the lectures (for wolfdog owners and breeders) of dr. Paul Mandigers about DM .
So maybe it is good to give here also some more general info.

DM is an old disease that exists in every breed and also in other not breed dogs
Not all DM affected dogs get physical problems
Probably creates a combination of more factors that a dog will get the physical problems

Breeding of breed dogs is a closed system
When higher homozygote in a breed : more genetic diseases, more behavior problems, less resistor, weaker performance, less vitality, more birth dead, and smaller litters
Heterozygote is needed for a healthy population of a breed!

So as told before in other topics, the advice of genetic specialists:

Try to breed as less Affected dogs as possible

But don't exclude dogs for breeding!

Try to keep the gene poule as broadly (and maxamize) as possible

On this moment only a very very small part of the population is tested.
Also old dogs and imported dogs were Carrier or Affected. So also in CsW breed it seems to be "an old disease" that did start in the past.
And probably it did start in earlier lines in countries of origin and a lot more CsW's can be Carrier or Affected.

So it will be good to test a lot more CsW's for DM!

Only then we can see how DM is spread in the breed and try to avoid that more Affected CsW's will be born!

jmvdwiel · 16-06-2010, 17:09

Try to breed as less Affected dogs as possible should be interpretated as: Use all the dogs you have (even the affected, ofcourse not the ones that are showing symptoms of DM, that would't be fair to the dogs), don't exclude any dog, but make good combinations so that the number of Affected dogs wil drop dramaticly in the future.
When I see the numbers of affected versus Free dogs I don't know if it is possible to get rid of DM in one or 2 generations, but we can try to get the number of Affected dogs down , and hopefully in the future no more DM dogs wil be born.

greetings Judith

Mikael · 16-06-2010, 20:25

Thanks Ina for your answer

I also do agree to this, more dogs most be tested !

( And I´m on my way to

)

Quote:

Originally Posted by mijke

So it will be good to test a lot more CsW's for DM!

Only then we can see how DM is spread in the breed and try to avoid that more Affected CsW's will be born!

Sona_Bognarova · 17-06-2010, 11:52

Well, first of all, my compliments and thanks to all who try to help with this problem, namely Mijke and Ina. As it seems, DM has been here (in CSW population) long time, we just did not know about that. Let's face it now and let's not waste any more time with denying it or blaming anyone. Furthermore, I agree with Ina, it would be very hasty to make any conclusion now - we need more samples!
And this is something we all can help with! I talked already to couple of owners in Slovakia, who have old (over 10 years of age) dogs and they said "by all means, we will do it". Having an affected dog is no shame, people, but it would definitely be a crying shame to close the eyes now. It needs a lot of work to organise the collection of the blood samples in broader extent and I can't do much from here in practical means, just to support people like Mijke and Ina and to have my own dog tested as soon as possible. I truly believe that for sake of your own dogs and any of their potential offspring you, folks, will do your best to have them tested for DM as soon as practical.

Sonja

loco · 19-06-2010, 15:17

What a

results

.
I wish the owners off the 7 dogs, a lot off strenght and wisdom.
Groette Martine.

Gypsy Wolf · 21-06-2010, 19:40

I test ALL my stock - including the outside males I want to use, for DM. Of course, even in GSD, very few breeders WANT to know! If they don't know, it isn't there, right? That's attitude.It is something I educate puppy buyers on, and sadly, I am one of the very few GSD breeders who test... Personally, I don't even know any other GSD breeder who does.
I also plan on testing Luna. It is all about KNOWING so we can eradicate DM. This stupidity of ignoring it does nothing! And the lack of knowledge is appalling. It seems that the breeders here say the test is "BS" and they also think that if a dog is Affected or a Carrier no one should know because it will be bad... they have no idea of genetics.
Back in the day there was a male who was Affected - he was a World Team dog and AMAZING. I was going to breed to him (my bitch is Clear) and yes, I would breed Carriers, but then have spay/neuter contracts and the pick would be bred to a Clear and Presto! No DM in just a generation or two of careful breeding! But the only way to know is to test!

massimo · 06-07-2010, 00:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sona_Bognarova

Well, first of all, my compliments and thanks to all who try to help with this problem, namely Mijke and Ina. As it seems, DM has been here (in CSW population) long time, we just did not know about that. Let's face it now and let's not waste any more time with denying it or blaming anyone. Furthermore, I agree with Ina, it would be very hasty to make any conclusion now - we need more samples!
And this is something we all can help with! I talked already to couple of owners in Slovakia, who have old (over 10 years of age) dogs and they said "by all means, we will do it". Having an affected dog is no shame, people, but it would definitely be a crying shame to close the eyes now. It needs a lot of work to organise the collection of the blood samples in broader extent and I can't do much from here in practical means, just to support people like Mijke and Ina and to have my own dog tested as soon as possible. I truly believe that for sake of your own dogs and any of their potential offspring you, folks, will do your best to have them tested for DM as soon as practical.

Sonja

There is a bunch of owners in Italy who are sensitive to this argument.
Many others (even owners of "famous" dogs, from "famous" breeders, brothers of your dogs Ina...), ignore and laugh about it as if we were fighting against ghosts or ants...
We will do our best to spread the word and make as many tests as possible.
it would be best if we could unite our strength and get some low cost tests ( i heard it might happen soon), however, I will send samples of my own dogs hopefully this week, and many others are doing the same within September.
Thank you Sonja for your words, they are encouraging and brake away all the sniggering laughter I read on some Italian Forums.
What we need is some videos of CSWs with DMA to show in what state they COULD be or their offspring COULD be.
Massimo

mijke · 06-07-2010, 03:00

Hi Massimo,

Thanks for your support in this subject!

And I am glad that also Italian CsW owners did contact me in private to get more information about DM

And I'll do my best to publish as soon as possible a "you tube" (without dog names!) of CsW's with physical DM problems.

But everybody also has to realize there is no reason for total "blind panic"!!
DM is an "old (genetic) disease" and also appears in "no breed" dogs.
Even not all by test proven "Affected dogs" seems to get all the physical problems. So also other factors seems to have influence in appearing physical DM problems (the same like with HD)

On this moment it would not be clever to make specific breeding rules based on the relative few CsW test DM test results !

But for the future of the breed it is necessary to test as much CsW's as possible, to see how this genetic disease is spread.

And of course in the meantime a lot of more research about DM is still needed!

PS
By the way, this all is the same for other genetic diseases like for example dwarfism! A lot of owners and breeders still deny this is a problem in the breed. And they are telling they did never see or hear about a CsW dwarf.

But in the meantime I have contact with several common CsW dwarf owners from different countries and from different lines..... But the most of them don't want to speak about this in public, because they don't want to harm the breeder....
The same I can tell about owners of CsW's with epilepsy, cancer, EPI and... Since I did start the wolfdog-healthinfo site, it is just like I did open "the box of Pandorra"!

So please don't believe any longer `the fairy tails` that CsW´s are the "most healthy breed" of the world!
Also in our beloved CsW breed, are just like in all other dog breeds : GENETIC HEALTH PROBLEMS!
And when we close our eyes and ignore all these problems (because of any reason you can think of), .....
About 50 years our breed will (just like many more breeds )not exist any longer!

So please be realistic, open your eyes and cooperate with research and testing of your dogs to save this wonderful breed for the future!

19-06-2010, 15:17	#8
loco Non active. Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Outside, walking the dog. Posts: 2,873	What a results . I wish the owners off the 7 dogs, a lot off strenght and wisdom. Groette Martine. __________________ Just treat stupid situations like a dog.....If you can't play with it or eat it....... Then just piss on it and walk away .

06-07-2010, 03:00	#11
mijke Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Warnsveld Posts: 2,033	Hi Massimo, Thanks for your support in this subject! And I am glad that also Italian CsW owners did contact me in private to get more information about DM And I'll do my best to publish as soon as possible a "you tube" (without dog names!) of CsW's with physical DM problems. But everybody also has to realize there is no reason for total "blind panic"!! DM is an "old (genetic) disease" and also appears in "no breed" dogs. Even not all by test proven "Affected dogs" seems to get all the physical problems. So also other factors seems to have influence in appearing physical DM problems (the same like with HD) On this moment it would not be clever to make specific breeding rules based on the relative few CsW test DM test results ! But for the future of the breed it is necessary to test as much CsW's as possible, to see how this genetic disease is spread. And of course in the meantime a lot of more research about DM is still needed! PS By the way, this all is the same for other genetic diseases like for example dwarfism! A lot of owners and breeders still deny this is a problem in the breed. And they are telling they did never see or hear about a CsW dwarf. But in the meantime I have contact with several common CsW dwarf owners from different countries and from different lines..... But the most of them don't want to speak about this in public, because they don't want to harm the breeder.... The same I can tell about owners of CsW's with epilepsy, cancer, EPI and... Since I did start the wolfdog-healthinfo site, it is just like I did open "the box of Pandorra"! So please don't believe any longer `the fairy tails` that CsW´s are the "most healthy breed" of the world! Also in our beloved CsW breed, are just like in all other dog breeds : GENETIC HEALTH PROBLEMS! And when we close our eyes and ignore all these problems (because of any reason you can think of), ..... About 50 years our breed will (just like many more breeds )not exist any longer! So please be realistic, open your eyes and cooperate with research and testing of your dogs to save this wonderful breed for the future! __________________ Vriendelijke groeten, Mijke PS: I am not a moderator anymore!! Last edited by mijke; 06-07-2010 at 03:02.

16-06-2010, 00:01	#2
hanninadina Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 2,466	Or maybe they are mostly from one breeder? Are these results from germany, maybe from the german clubshow in the mid of may? I know that there were more than 10 csw from one german breeder....

16-06-2010, 17:09	#5
jmvdwiel Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 1,061	Try to breed as less Affected dogs as possible should be interpretated as: Use all the dogs you have (even the affected, ofcourse not the ones that are showing symptoms of DM, that would't be fair to the dogs), don't exclude any dog, but make good combinations so that the number of Affected dogs wil drop dramaticly in the future. When I see the numbers of affected versus Free dogs I don't know if it is possible to get rid of DM in one or 2 generations, but we can try to get the number of Affected dogs down , and hopefully in the future no more DM dogs wil be born. greetings Judith

17-06-2010, 11:52	#7
Sona_Bognarova Junior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Adelaide Posts: 26	Well, first of all, my compliments and thanks to all who try to help with this problem, namely Mijke and Ina. As it seems, DM has been here (in CSW population) long time, we just did not know about that. Let's face it now and let's not waste any more time with denying it or blaming anyone. Furthermore, I agree with Ina, it would be very hasty to make any conclusion now - we need more samples! And this is something we all can help with! I talked already to couple of owners in Slovakia, who have old (over 10 years of age) dogs and they said "by all means, we will do it". Having an affected dog is no shame, people, but it would definitely be a crying shame to close the eyes now. It needs a lot of work to organise the collection of the blood samples in broader extent and I can't do much from here in practical means, just to support people like Mijke and Ina and to have my own dog tested as soon as possible. I truly believe that for sake of your own dogs and any of their potential offspring you, folks, will do your best to have them tested for DM as soon as practical. Sonja

21-06-2010, 19:40	#9
Gypsy Wolf Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Florida & Minnesota U.S. Posts: 252	I test ALL my stock - including the outside males I want to use, for DM. Of course, even in GSD, very few breeders WANT to know! If they don't know, it isn't there, right? That's attitude.It is something I educate puppy buyers on, and sadly, I am one of the very few GSD breeders who test... Personally, I don't even know any other GSD breeder who does. I also plan on testing Luna. It is all about KNOWING so we can eradicate DM. This stupidity of ignoring it does nothing! And the lack of knowledge is appalling. It seems that the breeders here say the test is "BS" and they also think that if a dog is Affected or a Carrier no one should know because it will be bad... they have no idea of genetics. Back in the day there was a male who was Affected - he was a World Team dog and AMAZING. I was going to breed to him (my bitch is Clear) and yes, I would breed Carriers, but then have spay/neuter contracts and the pick would be bred to a Clear and Presto! No DM in just a generation or two of careful breeding! But the only way to know is to test!