What is an interesting pedigree?

Hanka · 01-06-2010, 09:34

Yes, I know. Sometimes can be male in more groups, but there is important for example Rep z PS, BUT OVER male XY......
Because almost all dogs have Rep

elf · 01-06-2010, 12:33

Yeah Rep z PS is every living CSV pedigrees, no exception. I was more thinking about Gar z Rosíkova.

Tell me if this is correct:

- for group I and II, you only check for father line ? And for other group you check for all ancestors (father and mother lines) ?

- for group II, when you write "in their pedigries are Cézar od Pavlišina and Káj z Rosíkova", to be in group II dogs should have both Cézar and Káj, or only one of them is enough ?

I'm going to add those groups classification in the tool, same groups are also used by Slovak club or do they have their own ?

Hanka · 01-06-2010, 13:12

Elf, I send you names of dogs in groups, it is maybe better to see it. You can look at pedigries.
In groups we look at father lines.
But we have groups of females too. By females is normal to look at families (not father lines). But just for interest we have females in groups (father lines ) too.
But give me time. I send you email.
If you will make some program for it, it can be good for all owners of males, if they will want watch groups.
but maybe somewhere can be problem- for example if does not exist father line, in group can be some male which have blood of same "first reproductor" in mother line too. Unfortunatelly we lost some bloods in past..... it is not "clear", but it is "solution of emergency". It is a pitty, you don´t speak czech

for better explaining.

elf · 03-06-2010, 00:26

Hi, added "CZ breeding groups" feature in the Stat tool, let me know if it's working properly. You can also use + feature between IDs to simulate a mating.

Exemples:

Akim z Revíru vlku
Akim z Revíru vlku + Arielle la Seven Loup Cie

Mikael · 03-06-2010, 08:12

wow this is just to good

Now I can play the hole weekend

Very best regards / Mikael

elf · 03-06-2010, 17:03

I gave a short test for those groups criterions consistency, seems not very high, which means the expected "breeding effect" would not be as desired.

For exemple too many dogs in group X are also in group Y and/or Z etc. This is mainly probably because the dogs chosen to define groups are not discriminating enough, it would be maybe needed to redefine the groups criterions (for exemple by using more "recent dogs" ?). In this thread http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/showthread.php?t=9817 we can see more contemporary dogs heavily present in current living dogs pedigrees, just picked some of them:

3.23256510027% -- 1991.11.13 -- Dora Šedá eminence (4212)
2.61552275919% -- 1993.01.05 -- Amur z Dáblova kanonu CS (340

2.19878893929% -- 1992.03.10 -- Besi Zeper CS (2865)
2.19802147369% -- 1990.02.16 -- Alma z Kladenské záre CS (2864)
2.18036976493% -- 1991.01.29 -- Ajax Brevnovská stopa CS (2841)
2.13048450103% -- 1992.05.30 -- Aras z Jundrovského boru CS (2776)
2.10976292988% -- 1992.02.02 -- Omar z Krotkovského dvora CS (2749)
2.10669306748% -- 1994.09.26 -- Charon Šedá eminence (2745)
2.0990184115% -- 1991.01.29 -- Atos Brevnovská stopa CS (2735)
1.77668286019% -- 1993.03.04 -- Colt Zeper CS (2315)
1.73600718348% -- 1991.10.05 -- Farna Jimili CS (2262)

4.26505400943% -- 1996.10.24 -- Dalos Duna Fehérlófia (2144)
3.37185939645% -- 1996.10.17 -- Dik Brevnovská stopa CS (1695)
2.50054705683% -- 1996.10.24 -- Dinon Dánon Fehérlófia (1257)
2.32946746504% -- 1995.01.17 -- Adon Irpruš (1171)
2.10467683861% -- 1996.09.29 -- Juna Hlas divociny CS (105

1.91768286618% -- 1996.10.17 -- Dita Brevnovská stopa CS (964)
1.85004674849% -- 1996.11.10 -- Milo Ruskov dvor CS (930)
1.83612166544% -- 1995.10.27 -- Ali Reolup (923)
1.81225009449% -- 1998.10.27 -- Clover ---(priv. Rienzi)--- (911)
1.79832501144% -- 1996.10.22 -- Cira Volání rodu (904)

5.84204098249% -- 2000.03.15 -- Oasia ---Passo del Lupo--- (861)
5.40778938798% -- 2001.04.12 -- Cutt ---dell'Irco Sortiere--- (797)
2.68693174108% -- 2002.10.03 -- Miky Passo del Lupo (396)
1.58094721129% -- 2000.05.15 -- Jolly z Molu Es (233)
1.39774731985% -- 2000.01.02 -- Legra ---Passo del Lupo--- (206)
1.32989550821% -- 2000.01.25 -- Fallko Kollárov dvor (196)

Said in other words, nowadays it's maybe more relevant for a dog to be said for exemple X% of Dalos Duna Fehérlófia and Y% of Cutt ---dell'Irco Sortiere--- etc, than to be X% of Gar z Rosíkova and Y% of Káj z Rosíkova.

koboldine · 03-06-2010, 18:33

Hi elf,
great job, thanks a lot!!!!

I think that in Czech Breeding Commitee they needed to classify according to the "ancient" dogs, as this must have been started years ago.
From these classifications we can nevertheless define "interesting Pedigree" concerning blood lines.

Is there any chance to observe the character - ok, bonitation codes exist, but I sometimes would like to see them more differenciated...

Because...in my oppinion the character of a dog - and how he/she gives it to his/her puppies is important as well. CVC are special when it comes to characterising, and I have observed some kind of "fade out" of several character-parts in recent breeding - at least in Germany.

e.g. someone who likes to work with their dogs might find dogs from group IV more interesting... you know where I´m heading?
Others might have exellent blood but their puppies are more aggressiv or shy or...
Doesn´t that count in "interesting pedigrees"? (this is quite hypothetic as I do not know many CZ wolfdogs, nor enough wolfdogs from whereever to judge somehow)

Once again, thanks for this great tool - like Mikael already said: something to play with all weekend

regards
koboldine

01-06-2010, 12:33	#2
elf Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 766	Yeah Rep z PS is every living CSV pedigrees, no exception. I was more thinking about Gar z Rosíkova. Tell me if this is correct: - for group I and II, you only check for father line ? And for other group you check for all ancestors (father and mother lines) ? - for group II, when you write "in their pedigries are Cézar od Pavlišina and Káj z Rosíkova", to be in group II dogs should have both Cézar and Káj, or only one of them is enough ? I'm going to add those groups classification in the tool, same groups are also used by Slovak club or do they have their own ? __________________ http://www.amicale-chien-loup-tcheco...m/csvstat.html

03-06-2010, 00:26	#4
elf Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 766	Hi, added "CZ breeding groups" feature in the Stat tool, let me know if it's working properly. You can also use + feature between IDs to simulate a mating. Exemples: Akim z Revíru vlku Akim z Revíru vlku + Arielle la Seven Loup Cie __________________ http://www.amicale-chien-loup-tcheco...m/csvstat.html

03-06-2010, 08:12	#5
Mikael Scandinavian Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Stockholm Posts: 1,089	wow this is just to good Now I can play the hole weekend Very best regards / Mikael __________________ _________________________________________________ Hronec, Rasty, Zilja Kennel, Wolfdog of Sweden* http://kennelwolfdogofsweden.vpsite.se/Home.html http://www.facebook.com/pages/Wolfdo...53067971392916

03-06-2010, 17:03	#6
elf Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 766	I gave a short test for those groups criterions consistency, seems not very high, which means the expected "breeding effect" would not be as desired. For exemple too many dogs in group X are also in group Y and/or Z etc. This is mainly probably because the dogs chosen to define groups are not discriminating enough, it would be maybe needed to redefine the groups criterions (for exemple by using more "recent dogs" ?). In this thread http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/showthread.php?t=9817 we can see more contemporary dogs heavily present in current living dogs pedigrees, just picked some of them: 3.23256510027% -- 1991.11.13 -- Dora Šedá eminence (4212) 2.61552275919% -- 1993.01.05 -- Amur z Dáblova kanonu CS (340 2.19878893929% -- 1992.03.10 -- Besi Zeper CS (2865) 2.19802147369% -- 1990.02.16 -- Alma z Kladenské záre CS (2864) 2.18036976493% -- 1991.01.29 -- Ajax Brevnovská stopa CS (2841) 2.13048450103% -- 1992.05.30 -- Aras z Jundrovského boru CS (2776) 2.10976292988% -- 1992.02.02 -- Omar z Krotkovského dvora CS (2749) 2.10669306748% -- 1994.09.26 -- Charon Šedá eminence (2745) 2.0990184115% -- 1991.01.29 -- Atos Brevnovská stopa CS (2735) 1.77668286019% -- 1993.03.04 -- Colt Zeper CS (2315) 1.73600718348% -- 1991.10.05 -- Farna Jimili CS (2262) 4.26505400943% -- 1996.10.24 -- Dalos Duna Fehérlófia (2144) 3.37185939645% -- 1996.10.17 -- Dik Brevnovská stopa CS (1695) 2.50054705683% -- 1996.10.24 -- Dinon Dánon Fehérlófia (1257) 2.32946746504% -- 1995.01.17 -- Adon Irpruš (1171) 2.10467683861% -- 1996.09.29 -- Juna Hlas divociny CS (105 1.91768286618% -- 1996.10.17 -- Dita Brevnovská stopa CS (964) 1.85004674849% -- 1996.11.10 -- Milo Ruskov dvor CS (930) 1.83612166544% -- 1995.10.27 -- Ali Reolup (923) 1.81225009449% -- 1998.10.27 -- Clover ---(priv. Rienzi)--- (911) 1.79832501144% -- 1996.10.22 -- Cira Volání rodu (904) 5.84204098249% -- 2000.03.15 -- Oasia ---Passo del Lupo--- (861) 5.40778938798% -- 2001.04.12 -- Cutt ---dell'Irco Sortiere--- (797) 2.68693174108% -- 2002.10.03 -- Miky Passo del Lupo (396) 1.58094721129% -- 2000.05.15 -- Jolly z Molu Es (233) 1.39774731985% -- 2000.01.02 -- Legra ---Passo del Lupo--- (206) 1.32989550821% -- 2000.01.25 -- Fallko Kollárov dvor (196) Said in other words, nowadays it's maybe more relevant for a dog to be said for exemple X% of Dalos Duna Fehérlófia and Y% of Cutt ---dell'Irco Sortiere--- etc, than to be X% of Gar z Rosíkova and Y% of Káj z Rosíkova. __________________ http://www.amicale-chien-loup-tcheco...m/csvstat.html Last edited by elf; 03-06-2010 at 17:15.

03-06-2010, 18:33	#7
koboldine Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 472	Hi elf, great job, thanks a lot!!!! I think that in Czech Breeding Commitee they needed to classify according to the "ancient" dogs, as this must have been started years ago. From these classifications we can nevertheless define "interesting Pedigree" concerning blood lines. Is there any chance to observe the character - ok, bonitation codes exist, but I sometimes would like to see them more differenciated... Because...in my oppinion the character of a dog - and how he/she gives it to his/her puppies is important as well. CVC are special when it comes to characterising, and I have observed some kind of "fade out" of several character-parts in recent breeding - at least in Germany. e.g. someone who likes to work with their dogs might find dogs from group IV more interesting... you know where I´m heading? Others might have exellent blood but their puppies are more aggressiv or shy or... Doesn´t that count in "interesting pedigrees"? (this is quite hypothetic as I do not know many CZ wolfdogs, nor enough wolfdogs from whereever to judge somehow) Once again, thanks for this great tool - like Mikael already said: something to play with all weekend regards koboldine __________________ Kein Mensch darf mir meine Schwächen so deutlich zeigen, wie meine (Wolfs-)Hunde es tun.

01-06-2010, 09:34	#1
Hanka Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Kadaň Posts: 1,622	Yes, I know. Sometimes can be male in more groups, but there is important for example Rep z PS, BUT OVER male XY...... Because almost all dogs have Rep

01-06-2010, 13:12	#3
Hanka Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Kadaň Posts: 1,622	Elf, I send you names of dogs in groups, it is maybe better to see it. You can look at pedigries. In groups we look at father lines. But we have groups of females too. By females is normal to look at families (not father lines). But just for interest we have females in groups (father lines ) too. But give me time. I send you email. If you will make some program for it, it can be good for all owners of males, if they will want watch groups. but maybe somewhere can be problem- for example if does not exist father line, in group can be some male which have blood of same "first reproductor" in mother line too. Unfortunatelly we lost some bloods in past..... it is not "clear", but it is "solution of emergency". It is a pitty, you don´t speak czech for better explaining.