Working Kennels

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

Napisał yukidomari

Excellent posts Ina.

The difference between sports such as SchH and actual working like personal protection, K9, etc is very different. And I have learned from K9 handlers here that many dogs that excel in SchH are not suitable for actual work.. such as, poor judgment, low nerve, excitable, high prey drive.

Many GSDs from certain regions have been criticized for being overly sporty, which to me is just as bad as overly concentrated on show. Some friends who have dogs in SchH classes say some sections of it are just 'glorified games of tug of war'.

The German police will fully agree with that, they face the same problem.

Napisał yukidomari

I very much like Hanka's post too. At least in the countries whose dog fancy I generally know, kennels are usually divided quite clearly between "show" (multiple show Champions, etc) and "work/sport" (concentration on some type of work/emphasis on character- even if not real work). So people usually pick between one or the other. For example, you probably would not get a show Australian Shepherd if you had a farm for it to work on, because it would very likely not be able to do, or be able to do well, the work. This is independent of training or handling.

There is very rarely a kennel that concentrates on both at the same time, those are considered excellent kennels. It's interesting to hear that this isn't so in Czech Republic.

Luckily our breed isn´t that divided yet you will be able to work with most dogs but if you only want to go for Schutzhund-sports you will be better of with some Czech lines.
I find it much better to keep the breed on a level with dogs that are able to work and have a good exterieur. And I sometimes have the impression that on both sides it is often an excuse for using dogs that are not good for one of this two sides. Especially many so called working dogs are very bad in exterieur and their working abilitiy is used as a reason for breeding them, very often their abilities are not over avarage level. And vice versa of course.

Napisał michaelundinaeichhorn

I sometimes have the impression that on both sides it is often an excuse for using dogs that are not good for one of this two sides. Especially many so called working dogs are very bad in exterieur and their working abilitiy is used as a reason for breeding them, very often their abilities are not over avarage level. And vice versa of course.

This is SO TRUE!! I've noticed this SO much with breeders of all types of dogs. It's glaringly obvious in a lot of show breeds how their original temperaments have been watered down to make manageable show dogs, but people rarely mention how it works the other way with working/sporting dogs. I mean, why would you breed a dog with incorrect structure when it's possible to find another dog with the same temperament/drive that DOES fit well with the standard? I mean, obviously there are more things at play, but I definitely see what you mean about people using such things as an excuse.

Also, I love reading when you talk about your trailing dogs. Every time you mention the temperaments required to do the work, I get excited about the possibility of doing the same thing some day. I might come to you for advice whenever I can finally get my first CSV!

[Gypsy Wolf]

To Hanka, from my interpretation of the working requirements in the initial development of the breed, they were supposed to be excellent working dogs. That was the goal.
Coming from Malinois and German highline German Shepherds, I do not expect the vlcak to BE either of these breeds, but to have some characteristics that they do - traits that make a good working dog. Training, of course, counts heavily in how a vlcak looks while working (intense eye on handler, flashy obedience, etc.) but I do think a good vlcak with a good trainer would be able to compete in the same circles and do well.
To Mikael and Ina, I greatly appreciate your input. My girlfriend and I have both fallen in love with the vlcak and don't want to change them or expect them to be a different breed, but we want to preserve and enhance working characteristics in the breed - the goal, eventually, to be known for good working vlcaks. Of course, this will be some time in the future as our current vlcaks are just infants, and who knows what the future holds...
In any breeding program, care must be taken to stay true to the breed, so that there IS no dichotomy between "pretty" vlcaks and "working" vlcaks.
There is a school of thought that holds that genes "bundle" - so, in theory, the vlcaks that look more "shepherdy" would behave like a shepherd and the "wolfier" ones would behave more like a wolf... has anyone seen this to be true?
I do know a Schutzhund helper who says the lighter a dog's eyes are the nervier it is. I do not have the same experience with eye color, as I have worked with a broad spectrum of breeds - many of whom have a range of eye color. He focuses on German, Dutch & Belgian Shepherds...
So I look forward to seeing the evolution of the vlcak toward the ideal that Karel Hartl envisioned... after all, that is the goal, right?

[yukidomari]

Napisał Lunas Mom

There is a school of thought that holds that genes "bundle" - so, in theory, the vlcaks that look more "shepherdy" would behave like a shepherd and the "wolfier" ones would behave more like a wolf... has anyone seen this to be true?

I do believe there is some correlation between physiology and behavior - sort of a removed example, but I think you'd find the Russian silver fox domestication project very interesting.

Ear dropping, tail wagging, and different fur colors appeared in the group of foxes selectively bred for generations for human friendliness. Also, the skull morphology is markedly broader than their wild, unfriendly cousins.

[Gypsy Wolf]

I know in GSD the "coated" dogs do possess more collie-like characteristics than their short-haired counterparts. Collies had been introduced to the GSD back in the day and the plush coat, longer face, softer ears and softer temperament pop up frequently - at least in the "highlines"...
And in both mixed-breed litters or major out-cross litters, the general rule of thumb is that the pup will behave more like the parent it resembles.
I will say that I see a lot of potential in both my Luna and my girlfriend's Pollux. What remains to be seen is if we are capable of fully developing those gifts. I do firmly believe that my dogs' only limitations are my own ability to teach them.

[Hanka]

For Lunas mom: you wrote:
Training, of course, counts heavily in how a vlcak looks while working (intense eye on handler, flashy obedience, etc.) but I do think a good vlcak with a good trainer would be able to compete in the same circles and do well.

It is a pitty, you are so far from us. If you will come in future to trip to Czech,( ) I can take you to some training place where train wolfdogs and you can see different between working "normal" wolfdogs and wolfdogs with nature working possibility..... (the pleasure, quick work,quick aport with pleasure, very quick hunting and bitting of figurant.......) There is really different......

[Rona]

I've been reading your posts and have the repeated impression that with one exception you're mixing work and sport! BTW thanks Ina for the great posts, you've verbalised my own reflections.

I only wanted to draw you attention to the fact that most csv can easily recognize which tasks are authentic and which are not. This may have important implications for the training methods and explain some of the difficulties.

We used to have a truly working csv (without a pedigree and looking more like the first csv) that just by accompanying my husband in his field work trained herself to act geological resarch dog. Gradually, human teams relied more and more on her senses: she clearly signalled if a fresh wall in a quarry was approachable or not, she was able to 'gather' the team back after they worked individually in a difficult area (no mobile phones in the 90-ties!), when given the order she could easily find rocks croppin out in very dense forrests, etc, etc.
At home lazy sofa dog, in the field was turning into another animal: quick, exteremely rational and reliable, brave, fit and smart. Still, she was very independent and logical even if this was not human logic - this way she saved at least three people if not from death than surly from serious injuries. When completing a mission she didn't run after wild animals; deers and rabbits could walk next to her nose when she was trailing. What's more she loved that kind of work and when 'retired' at the age of 11-12, we had to give her tasks, otherwise she was getting depressed.

BUT, whenever we wanted her to show off in front of our friends how smart she was - she'd often pretnd a dummy and thus taught us modesty!

Lorka is not even two-years old, so I wouldn't dare to speculate what kind of dog she'd be when she fully matures, but she too, is able to recognise authentic, genuine sitautions from the pretended "mock" ones.
I suppose this is connected with am average very high level of empathy - we simply cannot fool our dogs!

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

Napisał Lunas Mom

To Hanka, from my interpretation of the working requirements in the initial development of the breed, they were supposed to be excellent working dogs. That was the goal.

As far as I did understand their main job was to track down intruders in the border corridor without their handler and not mainly to attack on command. Very different to Schutzhund.

Napisał Hanka

For Lunas mom: you wrote:
Training, of course, counts heavily in how a vlcak looks while working (intense eye on handler, flashy obedience, etc.) but I do think a good vlcak with a good trainer would be able to compete in the same circles and do well.

It is a pitty, you are so far from us. If you will come in future to trip to Czech,( ) I can take you to some training place where train wolfdogs and you can see different between working "normal" wolfdogs and wolfdogs with nature working possibility..... (,quick aport with pleasure, v) There is really different......

I would really like to hear in which real protection situation an intense eye on the handler or a quick aport with pleasure is of any use. I don´t come from this side of sports and can´t make any judgement apart from just looking at the training, but I think I would rather prefer a dog with a quick eye on the dangerous person that will protect me without command when necessary because it understands the difference between fake and reality.
If I want a dog that finds and aports lost things this is a different thing and training and doesn´t require quick aport but mainly concentrated search.

Cause I made the same experiences like Rona

Napisał Rona

I only wanted to draw you attention to the fact that most csv can easily recognize which tasks are authentic and which are not. This may have important implications for the training methods and explain some of the difficulties.

And for me this is much more important for a real working dog but of course a big problem with a sport dog.
I doubt, that the military was selecting for a sports dog.

Ina

[Gypsy Wolf]

Hanka, if I can find a place to stay as a guest, I am sure I can find the money for a plane ticket - I would LOVE to watch the flashy, sharp vlcaks doing incredible sportwork and learn more about the breed and teaching them (note that I said "teaching" rather than "training")...
Rona, to me "work" can mean both "sport" or "real-life" - "work" to me, means any venue in which a vlcak needs to use it's skills, talent and training. So "work" can mean Schutzhund sport, man-trailing, water rescue, agility... all of those are "jobs" for the vlcak and handler, so it is "work."
I am sure that every vlcak has it's own preferences.
My own dogs have shown me that - my GSD and my Malinois are not particularly interested in playing the "game" of Schutzhund, though both have proven they are excellent in real-life protection situations as well as trailing (without having trained for that!).
So if my Luna doesn't find Schutzhund to her liking as she matures, I will find the venue she prefers and work in that. Schutzhund is a fun sport but it isn't the ultimate breed-worthiness tool in my opinion.
As an aside, one of the GSD puppies I produced in my first (and only, so far) litter, CHOSE the sport of Schutzhund as her preferred interest, and her handlers got so into the sport they have now added a Malinois to their home and are training to be serious competitors on a National (and perhaps World) level with them. Prior to getting the puppy, they didn't even know what Schutzhund was!