Killing a stereotype.

[soniakanavle]

Originally Posted by yukidomari

All dogs are technically wolf hybrids down to the littlest Chihuahua or the biggest Mastiff. They just lost count of what generation it is. I personally don't think it does the breed any favors by emphasizing it, though IMHO.

Come on, it's a bit ridiculous to compare the CsV with a Chihuahua....
[And randomly, the AKC says that the Chihuahua is descended form the Fennec Fox!! Lol!!! ]
Czech Vlcak had pure wolf introduced as late as the 1970's, and into a wolf/GSD cross so I think 40 years is a bit closer to the temperment of a real wolf rather than the hundreds [or thousands] of years with most breeds of dogs. Even 'wolfy' acting Siberians are years and years away from any wolf, though I don't deny they're hard to handle, a husky was my first dog and I learned a lot about what I know about dogs from her and it's sad to see them go into the wrong hands as well.
At the SPCA at least 90% of the dogs were APBT/pitty mixes because the wrong people get the breed, which can be one of the sweetest dogs ever, to use for fighting, to have a mean guard dog or cause they think they're 'cool'. [And I understand the severe threat of this happening to the CsV if not introduced to the US in the right way.]

My only point is, I don't think the best route to good PR is just to cover up the fact that they are a wolf/dog [not just a descendant of wolves like most breeds of dog.] But to teach the public that they can be a trustworthy family pet/working dog by good examples, CGC/other titles, knowledgeable people representing the breed etc.

[draggar]

Originally Posted by GalomyOak

IVerbally representing a dog as a wolf mix could get you in trouble in some places, so I never do, unless I know it is a person I trust. "Wolf Hybrid" has been beaten down (since the dogs are not "technically" hybrids) to become synonymous with wolfdog. Good publicity, and very careful communication will be key to the slow and steady progression of the breed, the fact that the AKC recognizes them as a dog breed period, is an advantage. Negative publicity is what really scares me - one child getting bitten, or animal getting attacked here and making it to the news - and it will be a dark day for our breed in the US...

I try my hardest to call her a vlcak and then if people ask about the breed, I get into the history.

Originally Posted by soniakanavle

Well, but the breed IS a wolf/dog cross.....

Which doesn't mean it's dangerous of course, but I don't think trying to cover up the fact isn't the best idea, then inexperienced people will end up buying them thinking it'll act just like a GSD or another normal dog then end up with a crazy wild animal in their home when they don't know how to train it right. [I used to work at the SPCA and see lots of wolf hybrids get abandoned cause people didn't know what to expect and they would usually euthanize them because they couldn't adopt them out again. So sad. ]

And anyway, 'Vlcak' just means 'Wolfdog' in Czech, so any Czech-Americans will still know what they truly are.

I'm sure most Czech-Americans or Slovak-Americans will also know about the breed, in some way. I'm not saying hide the truth, I'm saying tell people what they are - vlcak. That doesn't matter if it means wolfdog in the language or not. Many dogs have names in other languages that people don't know the name from it (heck, most don't even know what the names mean!).

As for people getting the wrong dog - that will happen with any breed. People see schutzhund and police videos thinking they want a dog like that (working like GSD or Belgian) and don't realize it takes a hell of a lot of work to get a dog like that *and* constant training and supervision. I've seen people who aren't even suited for a newfie or a lab want (and sometimes get) a working line shepherd.

Funny story actually, German Shepherds are on the 'Breed ban list' here in Portland OR, [for some stupid reason] so I had a way harder time finding a place to rent with my GSD than my 'Czech Wolfdog' lol.

Belgian shepherds are rarely on those lists, too.

Originally Posted by yukidomari

All dogs are technically wolf hybrids down to the littlest Chihuahua or the biggest Mastiff. They just lost count of what generation it is. I personally don't think it does the breed any favors by emphasizing it, though IMHO.

More like some long-lost common "wolf like" ancestor, but yes (this thought is continued below...)

Originally Posted by soniakanavle

Czech Vlcak had pure wolf introduced as late as the 1970's, and into a wolf/GSD cross so I think 40 years is a bit closer to the temperment of a real wolf rather than the hundreds [or thousands] of years with most breeds of dogs. Even 'wolfy' acting Siberians are years and years away from any wolf, though I don't deny they're hard to handle, a husky was my first dog and I learned a lot about what I know about dogs from her and it's sad to see them go into the wrong hands as well. .

I don't think it is the number of generations that will make a dog less wolfy as opposed to how they are bred. Luna is a lot like a malinois or a working like GSD puppy which, even though bratty and wild looking, she is nothing like the litter of Finnish spitz puppies we had whom were extremely wolf-like in temperament yet that is one of the oldest breeds in existence (almost extinct for a while, too).

I think the biggest difference in the tempeaments is that the more "working line' breeds show a lot of play drive while the wolf-like temperament breeds show more "hunting" drive while growing up.

[GalomyOak]

Maybe I speak just for my own state, but in Virginia, if you make a verbal representation of your dog being a "wolfdog" to any "official" - or in some cases, other people can say your dog has been representaed as a wolfdog - they are obligated, by law, to report it to animal control. "Official" holds veterinarians, certain dog trainers, and sheriff's deputies under it's umbrella. Now, it is possible to obtain a permit for a "wolfdog" (even if my dog doesn't fit the generally accepted < F5 definition) here...but no way I could afford the requirements, and it also requires you to keep your dog enclosed on your property 24/7...I plan on obtaining therapy dog status with Bongo in 1-2 months; don't really see him (or any of my dogs) as public enemy #1...I use Vlcak so I get the opportunity to evaluate the situation before judgments are made, and offer my dogs a little protection. The history of the breed is known, is public - typically, people know what they are buying (for now) - whether they use good common sense when buying is another issue...

Made it to Friday...

[yukidomari]

Originally Posted by draggar

I don't think it is the number of generations that will make a dog less wolfy as opposed to how they are bred. Luna is a lot like a malinois or a working like GSD puppy which, even though bratty and wild looking, she is nothing like the litter of Finnish spitz puppies we had whom were extremely wolf-like in temperament yet that is one of the oldest breeds in existence (almost extinct for a while, too).

Agreed. Reference the tame-fox project that took place in Russia. Selectively breeding for human friendliness and biddability can happen over the course of just a few generations.

Also, feral dogs like dingos (which recently in the news was said to be the oldest creature considered a 'dog' in the world) and New Guinea Singing Dogs can be kept as pets just a few short generations after removal from the wild. The NGSD is also a recognized breed in the UKC and FCI now.

Just a note: I don't think that dogs and foxes are in the same species.. they can't reproduce.. the AKC was just printing another rumor of where people think Chis come from.. I think.. Chis can genetically reproduce with all other dogs and yes, even wolves. A chi-wolf..

ETA: Breed bans.. ugh. That's true, though, Sonia.. Typically here they'll ban pit types, rotties, dobes, akita, great danes.. etc.

Yet if you have a dog similar to, say, an Akita like a Shikoku-ken, apparently you're fine.

[AMERICANI]

Polish Americans will also understand what they are..(although spelled different, the pronuciation isn't really). As Americans we know how big of an issue this can become. We just need to be extremely cautious on who we present our dogs to. I plan on only selling to people with the set intention of working: ie. security contractors, police departments, insurance companies, etc... I don't want every jackass that thinks they need one because it is new & cool to even have a shot at obtaining one through me. ....and 1 or 2 species of foxes (I have heard were capable of crossing with dogs), but the most common have the extra X chromosome...I'm not a geneticist, and thats ass far as I will go with that, but when I was a kid, me and a friend were trying to cross this crazy looking pheasant with a chicken...The eggs began to develop, but something went wrong and they didn't hatch.

[AMERICANI]

HEHEHE, I just looked up dog-fox hybrids on Wikipedia... There are no reported successful breedings. If it's on Wikipedia, it must be true...

[yukidomari]

Originally Posted by AMERICANI

HEHEHE, I just looked up dog-fox hybrids on Wikipedia... There are no reported successful breedings. If it's on Wikipedia, it must be true...

Obviously!

Anyway, I think it's been said before by Marcy on this thread, but 'wolfdog' according to one source means F5 or later... therefore vlcaks are not a wolf hybrid. It's just sad that there are so many ill intentioned people actually breeding wolf hybrids/wolfdogs without a background of breeding knowledge and lacking a good, solid program resulting in mixes unsuitable for pet keeping, and that 'Vlcak' happens to share their same name. Without tight, controlled breeding to wolves back in the day, Vlcaks could have been a disaster like so many unfortunate other wolfdogs.. (my older sister works in wolfdog rescue).. those dogs often turn out unsuitable for human keeping yet also unsuitable for wild living.

Once I knew through the grapevine one lady breeding 'hybrids'.. what she would do was take her female husky in heat and take her off to the woods where male wolves would get at her some time during the night.

Real responsible, course. Anything could have happened to be her bitch, and with any quality wolf of any temperament. Then she'd turn around and sell those dogs to anyone with money .. F1 crosses that are completely against the law in many, many areas and unsuitable for being a pet. Bad enough to be a backyard breeder.. much less messing with wolves.