AKC lowering registration numbers for full recognition from FSS?

soniakanavle · 13-03-2010, 13:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by GalomyOak

Correct!

http://www.akc.org/reg/fss_news.cfm]

P.S. "Czechoslovakian Valak" ??? I wonder what breed that is??

[I hope the AKC gets it's paperwork/spellcheck right before making the CsV an official registrable breed.]

draggar · 13-03-2010, 14:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by soniakanavle

I live in the US and I have a five year old male CsV [Loki von Wolfen] that I would like to register with the AKC/FSS and UKC [I could add 1 number to the list!

] but I have a problem which, apparenty, is I imported him from Canada, not Europe and since the Canadian Kennel Club doesn't accept our CsV as a breed yet, [and I've heard has no intention to do so anytime soon] I'm not able to submit a three generation pedigree/registration number since the CKC is the only registry in Canada that both the AKC/UKC accept. I wrote to the breeder in Quebec, and he said he gave up on the CKC and is hoping to register the litter [finally] with the 'Canine Federation of Canada' [CFC] which so far only has five breeds on its list, though he said they are adding 17 more this year, CsV included. It is not affiliated with the CKC or the FCI though and I have no idea if the AKC will accept it as a worthy foreign registry....

UKC is irrelevant if Canada recognizes it or not, that's only the CKC. If they're not registered with the UKC then you might have a hard time registerig them with the AKC.

Quote:

Originally Posted by soniakanavle

P.S. "Czechoslovakian Valak" ??? I wonder what breed that is??

[I hope the AKC gets it's paperwork/spellcheck right before making the CsV an official registrable breed.]

I don't think vlcak is in any English speaking spell checker, maybe they need to add it to theirs!

But, it's just on that page. On the breed list it is spelled correctly, vlcak.

Marcy - is breeding wolf hybrids illegal? (I didn't know that - or why else would have have called the police on you?). Since the officer was impressed with the breed maybe they have a future of being a small part of the police canine community - Luna sure has the temperament right now for it!

As for the hero story - don't forget Luna is going to be a service dog for Sara, she's already being conditioned for this. While it's no Lassie saving Timmy from a burning building (wait, wasn't that Lad and Wolf actually?) it's a start. Just look at the positive press Sara and Zorro got for Westminster / him being her own service dog.

As for the blog, I've started on on my site and I'll try to keep it running but I always have projects going on with the web front (I just recently bought some "year" domains and I plan on putting up some historical sites, plus over a dozen dog breed domains), but I'll try to keep vlcak to the top of the list. The CMS (Joomla) is getting easier to use.

Marcy - do you own the domain for the CsVCA club (czechoslovakianvlcak.org)? The WhoIs is private but your name is listed (but that doesn't mean anything).

Quote:

Originally Posted by GalomyOak

T I did hear from Fred Lanting, still need to respond - as I said, a lot going on. I really respect his work, and think it is awesome he is on board.

OK. I just shot him an email to let him know that you did receive his email just hasn't been able to respond yet (bust with home, work, puppies, etc..). Next time he is down here I'll be sure to introduce him to Luna (but as far as I know there are no plans for a Sieger show anytime soon).

GalomyOak · 13-03-2010, 16:08

AKC does not recognize UKC as a registry (from the beginning, they were rivals - AKC focused on conformation, UKC on working potential). UKC also recognizes breeds that AKC (and in some cases, FCI) does not recognize - the American Pitbull Terrier being a big one, as well as the White GSD (or Berger Blanc Suisse). However, UKC recognizes pedigrees from AKC. Sonia, not quite sure what the answer to your dilemma is, at least for the AKC.

It might be worth checking with the FCI/kennel club in Puerto Rico - as they are a US territory, they will register dogs for the US - since Flint's parents were both FCI, maybe that is a possibility? Once FCI, he could register with AKC. Co-ownership should be no problem, since Flint resides in the US, as long as Daniel agrees. As for UKC...something might be possible there, let me do some investigating. Didn't Daniel title his female in Canada? Or was that through CFC...

Another possibility is that both registries might look to pedigrees recognized by the US breed club (with time)...but we have to consider what other cans of worms that might open in the US in the long run (i.e - mixed breeds, acceptance of CSVs without pedigrees from questionable breedings, etc.)

Forgot to mention this in the last post - when I asked FSS about the requirements for AKC to recognize/list a breed club on their website, and as part of their previous requirements for performance/companion events, they said they needed contact information for all members. That is about where I left off in 2008 - several people didn't feel comfortable handing over their info to AKC (who clearly uses it for marketing, as well), and I certainly was not about to jump that boundary. But now that we are gaining a bit of momentum...maybe we have some "sacrificial" owners/fanciers who don't mind their info being listed.

Take the time to look at websites for some of the other FSS breeds, particularly the ones with smaller numbers. They kind of give you an idea of where our next steps might lead. One breed I have really looked up to and modeled after is the Berger Picard (Picardy Shepherd - remember the movie "Because of Winn-Dixie?"). Their parent club is also based out of VA - really cool people, with similar goals and expectations - fun to hang out with at the UKC shows on this side of the country too!

It is illegal to own or breed "hybrids" in many states, others leave governance to individual towns/cities. In my county, you must have special permits (lots of hoop-jumping) to own any type of dangerous/wild animal - special insurance must be obtained, enclosures, etc. That is very common, and probably the norm in most places that don't have an outright ban. It's why I wanted our name converted back to Vlcak. Wolfdog, in our language in the US, has too many conatations. I always stick with the HSUS F5 ideaology, and of course, having pedigrees is a big fallback, too. And then: PR, PR, PR!!! How we present the breed here will determine it's fate in the US - good publicity is always good, of course. But at the same time, we don't want people fantacizing/rationalizing about the breed anymore than they already do. The old adage: They aren't for everyone!

We used to be Ceskoslovensky VLACK with UKC for a long time (wish we could have kept the Ceskoslovensky part...thanks AKC

)- I think I own the only championed VLACK in the whole world (according to my certificate and pedigree).

Marcy

soniakanavle · 19-03-2010, 09:23

Thanks for all the info Marcy.
It's guess it's really not that big of a deal to register him here, since I'm not going to show/compete with him, I just thought it would be good to have him in the FSS for records of the first CsV's in the US. Daniel promised to get me his CFC pedigree this year so that will be good, [and yes, Shetan was titled through the CFC, he gave up on CKC completely.] As far as I could tell UKC also only would accept the CKC, so it doesn't look too good for there either.

And you brought up a good topic I was wondering about, why the breed is called 'Czechoslovakian Vlack' here?? It makes us Americans seem so stupid [as always

] that we're too scared to have the word 'wolf' in any breeds name [even though every one of 'man's best friend' has wolf in them somewhere down the line] but we still want to be able to pronounce the name so we can't have 'Ceskoslovensky'. So stupid. Why not have the German Schäferhund?? Or 'Dog de Bordeau' I think we should either keep the original breed name or all in english, not a mix.

I would prefer Ceskoslovensky Vlack myself.

yukidomari · 20-03-2010, 14:06

I'm torn on whether I want the AKC to fully recognize the CSV, too.

With recognition you do get the show crowd but worse than that, the publicity so that your dog owner who are not equipped to own Chihuahuas would also like to own a CSV.

It would be nice if a strong breed club could control this, but the AKC has been known to do things like, encourage a breed club split and then take as the 'official breed club' another club.

See Cavalier King Charles Spaniel's 2 clubs - The parent club repeatedly declined AKC's invite to join, so AKC picked as the 'parent' club, a breakaway club and recognized the breed anyway. This worries me as obviously the AKC can also choose a club that has its ethics and interests elsewhere (show lines only, less stringent rules, etc).

The AKC makes its money off of litter registration.. it has even run ads with Hunte Corp, an infamous puppy mill broker here in the USA. Thousands of Hunte's puppies in pet stores are implicitly endorsed by the AKC because they are registered.. and you know for the average pet owner, 'AKC' is obviously a stamp of quality. AKC KNOWS this and remains silent. There are other breed clubs in which you could report this type of activity.. not have the breed club itself do this..

For that reason while I agree it lends legitimacy, there are so many things about the AKC that is just not commendable. It's only a registry but its influence and power can't be taken lightly.

I know this is a CSV forum but owners of 'real' working dogs - dogs still actively used for work - like the Catahoula Leopard Dog and the Russian Ovcharka - people with those dogs, and I know quite a few, felt like crying when they heard that the AKC wanted to recognize it.

In my humble opinion getting a breed INTO the AKC is the easier part than staying out of the AKC.

draggar · 20-03-2010, 15:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by yukidomari

The AKC makes its money off of litter registration.. it has even run ads with Hunte Corp, an infamous puppy mill broker here in the USA. Thousands of Hunte's puppies in pet stores are implicitly endorsed by the AKC because they are registered.. and you know for the average pet owner, 'AKC' is obviously a stamp of quality. AKC KNOWS this and remains silent. There are other breed clubs in which you could report this type of activity.. not have the breed club itself do this..

For that reason while I agree it lends legitimacy, there are so many things about the AKC that is just not commendable. It's only a registry but its influence and power can't be taken lightly.

There are a lot of issues with getting full recognition with the AKC (plus you bring up a great point about puppy mills etc.. - especially with their (recently removed) "Register 10 litters, get the 11th for $1" (roughly between October of 2009 and June of 2010).

Don't worry - I have several issues with the AKC (go look up the real reason why Fred Lanting was fired / quit as an AKC judge). I'm not here to push one way or the other (which is why you may see me playing devil's advocate a lot). I know Luna will never see the inside of an AKC conformation ring and I'm fine with that but I am happy to see that she will be able to compete in obedience, tracking, herding, and whatever else she seems to enjoy. (I'd be happier if she liked to cuddle, though!).

AMERICANI · 21-03-2010, 12:10

I am in a tough spot as well. A large number of medical issues link back to AKC policies and requirements. However, as in Marcy's case, when something happens and the dog warden shows up at your door, what else do we have to present as legitimate American documentation? This worries me. Next, I am still in Italy. Do my dogs need to be on American soil to register?

13-03-2010, 16:08	#3
GalomyOak Howling Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Colorado Posts: 436	AKC does not recognize UKC as a registry (from the beginning, they were rivals - AKC focused on conformation, UKC on working potential). UKC also recognizes breeds that AKC (and in some cases, FCI) does not recognize - the American Pitbull Terrier being a big one, as well as the White GSD (or Berger Blanc Suisse). However, UKC recognizes pedigrees from AKC. Sonia, not quite sure what the answer to your dilemma is, at least for the AKC. It might be worth checking with the FCI/kennel club in Puerto Rico - as they are a US territory, they will register dogs for the US - since Flint's parents were both FCI, maybe that is a possibility? Once FCI, he could register with AKC. Co-ownership should be no problem, since Flint resides in the US, as long as Daniel agrees. As for UKC...something might be possible there, let me do some investigating. Didn't Daniel title his female in Canada? Or was that through CFC... Another possibility is that both registries might look to pedigrees recognized by the US breed club (with time)...but we have to consider what other cans of worms that might open in the US in the long run (i.e - mixed breeds, acceptance of CSVs without pedigrees from questionable breedings, etc.) Forgot to mention this in the last post - when I asked FSS about the requirements for AKC to recognize/list a breed club on their website, and as part of their previous requirements for performance/companion events, they said they needed contact information for all members. That is about where I left off in 2008 - several people didn't feel comfortable handing over their info to AKC (who clearly uses it for marketing, as well), and I certainly was not about to jump that boundary. But now that we are gaining a bit of momentum...maybe we have some "sacrificial" owners/fanciers who don't mind their info being listed. Take the time to look at websites for some of the other FSS breeds, particularly the ones with smaller numbers. They kind of give you an idea of where our next steps might lead. One breed I have really looked up to and modeled after is the Berger Picard (Picardy Shepherd - remember the movie "Because of Winn-Dixie?"). Their parent club is also based out of VA - really cool people, with similar goals and expectations - fun to hang out with at the UKC shows on this side of the country too! It is illegal to own or breed "hybrids" in many states, others leave governance to individual towns/cities. In my county, you must have special permits (lots of hoop-jumping) to own any type of dangerous/wild animal - special insurance must be obtained, enclosures, etc. That is very common, and probably the norm in most places that don't have an outright ban. It's why I wanted our name converted back to Vlcak. Wolfdog, in our language in the US, has too many conatations. I always stick with the HSUS F5 ideaology, and of course, having pedigrees is a big fallback, too. And then: PR, PR, PR!!! How we present the breed here will determine it's fate in the US - good publicity is always good, of course. But at the same time, we don't want people fantacizing/rationalizing about the breed anymore than they already do. The old adage: They aren't for everyone! We used to be Ceskoslovensky VLACK with UKC for a long time (wish we could have kept the Ceskoslovensky part...thanks AKC)- I think I own the only championed VLACK in the whole world (according to my certificate and pedigree). Marcy __________________ "What lies behind us and what lies ahead of us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us."~Henry David Thoreau http://www.galomyoak.com Last edited by GalomyOak; 13-03-2010 at 16:11.

20-03-2010, 14:06	#5
yukidomari Moderator Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Los Angeles CA Posts: 847	I'm torn on whether I want the AKC to fully recognize the CSV, too. With recognition you do get the show crowd but worse than that, the publicity so that your dog owner who are not equipped to own Chihuahuas would also like to own a CSV. It would be nice if a strong breed club could control this, but the AKC has been known to do things like, encourage a breed club split and then take as the 'official breed club' another club. See Cavalier King Charles Spaniel's 2 clubs - The parent club repeatedly declined AKC's invite to join, so AKC picked as the 'parent' club, a breakaway club and recognized the breed anyway. This worries me as obviously the AKC can also choose a club that has its ethics and interests elsewhere (show lines only, less stringent rules, etc). The AKC makes its money off of litter registration.. it has even run ads with Hunte Corp, an infamous puppy mill broker here in the USA. Thousands of Hunte's puppies in pet stores are implicitly endorsed by the AKC because they are registered.. and you know for the average pet owner, 'AKC' is obviously a stamp of quality. AKC KNOWS this and remains silent. There are other breed clubs in which you could report this type of activity.. not have the breed club itself do this.. For that reason while I agree it lends legitimacy, there are so many things about the AKC that is just not commendable. It's only a registry but its influence and power can't be taken lightly. I know this is a CSV forum but owners of 'real' working dogs - dogs still actively used for work - like the Catahoula Leopard Dog and the Russian Ovcharka - people with those dogs, and I know quite a few, felt like crying when they heard that the AKC wanted to recognize it. In my humble opinion getting a breed INTO the AKC is the easier part than staying out of the AKC. Last edited by yukidomari; 20-03-2010 at 14:09.

21-03-2010, 12:10	#7
AMERICANI Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Planet Earth Posts: 111	AKC Registration I am in a tough spot as well. A large number of medical issues link back to AKC policies and requirements. However, as in Marcy's case, when something happens and the dog warden shows up at your door, what else do we have to present as legitimate American documentation? This worries me. Next, I am still in Italy. Do my dogs need to be on American soil to register?

19-03-2010, 09:23	#4
soniakanavle Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Blanco, Texas Posts: 81	Thanks for all the info Marcy. It's guess it's really not that big of a deal to register him here, since I'm not going to show/compete with him, I just thought it would be good to have him in the FSS for records of the first CsV's in the US. Daniel promised to get me his CFC pedigree this year so that will be good, [and yes, Shetan was titled through the CFC, he gave up on CKC completely.] As far as I could tell UKC also only would accept the CKC, so it doesn't look too good for there either. And you brought up a good topic I was wondering about, why the breed is called 'Czechoslovakian Vlack' here?? It makes us Americans seem so stupid [as always ] that we're too scared to have the word 'wolf' in any breeds name [even though every one of 'man's best friend' has wolf in them somewhere down the line] but we still want to be able to pronounce the name so we can't have 'Ceskoslovensky'. So stupid. Why not have the German Schäferhund?? Or 'Dog de Bordeau' I think we should either keep the original breed name or all in english, not a mix. I would prefer Ceskoslovensky Vlack myself.