CSV Mixes in the US

draggar · 23-02-2010, 14:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by miran

Tamaskan is been breed for looks and behavior.
We all know the CWS behavior and that is not what we want in the Tamaskan. So yes there are breeds that look the same just take the Saarloos.....

Every breed has it's reason and purpose and IMO the only acceptable reason to cross breed (any breed) is to create a new breed that fills a gap in the dog world. Breeding cross-breeds for money or just ease IMO is unethical to begin with. "They make good pets" is not a good reason.

Any puppies sold during the "transition" period (while the new breed is being engineered (for the lack of a better term) should all be spayed / neutered when they reach the correct age.

Quote:

It is a big shame that breeders(not real tamaskan breeders) will use a story and try to really crossbreed them with CWS because they do not know what they create, just for the use of selling there litter better. They can not use the standard of a Tamaskan if they use another breed because the easy behavior of the dog will be gone. Just like any CWS,Saarloos and real Tamaskan owner is that where we all fighting against.
So please any CWS or Saarloos owner please please please never let one of your dogs been used for this unethical practise

No dog (of any breed) should be used for unethical breeding. This is a major issue here in the USA - too many unethical breeders breeding and selling the pups too young (I just saw on another forum someone's family got a puppy - the "last one" from the litter, at 5 weeks - yes, I went off on them), don't require neuter / spay so then these new pet owners can breed "pet" dogs thus contributing to an exploding pet overpopulation.

Luckily, the vlcak breed is still very new in the USA so it can be monitored who gets the puppies and make sure people with the dogs' and breed's best interests in mind as opposed to their own agenda but sadly there WILL be a time when this can no longer be monitored. As the breed becomes more popular (and I know there is a small demand for wolf-hybrids here) more unethical breeders will pop up, just look at how damaged the German shepherd breed is here.

miran · 23-02-2010, 15:09

Quote:

Any puppies sold during the "transition" period (while the new breed is being engineered (for the lack of a better term) should all be spayed / neutered when they reach the correct age.

Well not any but yes most. Only not the ones you want to use for using your word the engineering for the breed.

Quote:

Every breed has it's reason and purpose and IMO the only acceptable reason to cross breed (any breed) is to create a new breed that fills a gap in the dog world. Breeding cross-breeds for money or just ease IMO is unethical to begin with. "They make good pets" is not a good reason.

Besides good pets the breed was original started for a better sled-dog.
I find a pup going to his new home with 5 weeks way to early(at the earliest point I would say 8 weeks and no sooner). And if only used for house-dog I agree with you that it is better that they all be spayed / neutered.

michaelundinaeichhorn · 23-02-2010, 15:33

As spaying/neutering can have very negative side effects I find this point of view very strange. It means you amputate healthy organs instead of looking for responsible owners.

Ina

draggar · 23-02-2010, 16:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn

As spaying/neutering can have very negative side effects I find this point of view very strange. It means you amputate healthy organs instead of looking for responsible owners.

Ina

There are health arguments on both sides of the issue but even the most responsible owner can still have accidents or unforseen events. IMO it is better in the log run to take percuations.

Many pets were not spayed or neutered in the Cayman Islands and because of this they had a stray dog population explosion (that's an understatement) after hurricane Ivan went though the island. I'm sure a year (or two) form now we'll see a similar situation in Haiti.

miran · 23-02-2010, 16:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by draggar

There are health arguments on both sides of the issue but even the most responsible owner can still have accidents or unforseen events. IMO it is better in the log run to take percuations.

Many pets were not spayed or neutered in the Cayman Islands and because of this they had a stray dog population explosion (that's an understatement) after hurricane Ivan went though the island. I'm sure a year (or two) form now we'll see a similar situation in Haiti.

So if you don't want to breed it is better and beside that in some cases it is easier

In my case it is easier. I do not want to breed with my CWS or Saarloos and I am absolute against crossbreeding so I neutered them so there can be no accidental crossbreed. By both I let the vet take everything out.

michaelundinaeichhorn · 23-02-2010, 16:33

I am watching at spayed/neutered animals as a vet since more than two decades and did and do those surgeries myself. There are good reasons for this surgery and also very good reasons against which have to be seen at in every individual case because once you have the surgery done there is no way of making it undone.
In the German animal protection law the amputation of bodyparts without medical reason is strictly forbidden, to do it just because a hurricane may come one day is surely no medical reason. That there is no way to controle a freeranging cat is seen as a reason and as we have lots of cats that are allowed to live a normal cat-life involving leaving the house without the owner is seen as enough reason to castrate it, additional to the health problem of persisting heat in female not spayed cats. As we have almost no free running (not within the reach of the owner) dogs and no health problem in dogs that aren´t mating it is a difficult question in our country. I think to ask this questions is right. That some day some bodypart may get ill is no medical reason as long as there is no genetic mutation. Though these surgeries are done I do believe that you have to decide on every case looking at every point involved. I find it highly questionable from an ethical point of view to spay/neuter in general in a country where it is not usual that the dogs run free without their owner and therefor it is very easy to prevent unwished litters. It of course is different in countries where there a big amounts of stray dogs but in most parts of the US it is not even allowed to let your dog run of leash, and also in the UK straying dogs are not the normal way dogs are kept. That there has been a hurricane in the Caymans can´t be a reason to spay dogs in Maine, USA or Berlin, Germany.
That you have male and female dogs together that shouldn´t breed which each other and you can´t seperate them properly may be a reason.

Again, there are good reasons for castration but to do it simply on every individual that is not meant to go into breeding (from a strictly human point of view also) for me is unethical.

Ina

24-02-2010, 00:10

Scientific article on the pros and cons of spaying and castrating dogs and cats I got from another pet forum

:

http://www.skeptvet.com/index.php?p=...s-of-Neutering

As for my own opinion, I have seen far too many irresponsible people to have your point of view, Ina. I may be disillusioned, but I feel that with as many "accidents" I've seen, and with as many behavioral problems that neutering could help fix as I've seen, I definitely feel that any dog that isn't working or showing and going to be bred in the future should be fixed. With such a pet overpopulation, and with all the problems with people irresponsibly breeding mixed dogs, I just wouldn't feel comfortable selling a dog without either a co-ownership clause or a spay/neuter clause in the contract. As the breeder, it's your responsibility if the person you sell a puppy to has an "Oops" litter. I guess I just don't have as much faith in humanity as you do!

michaelundinaeichhorn · 24-02-2010, 09:18

As we work as behaviorists as a main job and there has been a lot of communication and research done here in the last years I can tell you that neutering hasn´t got the big behavioural effects as it is meant to have. It only has effects on cases that are only caused by sexual hormons,which are not very many and can be checked in advance by medical castration. before neutering.
And it also can have very negativ behavioural effects!

I think we simply have a very different point of view on treatment of problems in Europe and the USA. We also don´t declaw cats because they could scratch or destroy for example. The use of drugs for behavioral treatment is also of a much lower amount.

If the argument is unwished offspring there is the way of sterilisation which has the same effect but doesn´t change the hormonal status.
I also work for a very big animal shelter and can tell you that we only see very few cases of unwished puppies of German owners. Most litters are of rescued dogs out of countries with stray dogs, where of course like I wrote before neutering is the best way to go (and would be legal in Germany).
I talked of familiy pets in "normal" countries where dogs live with their family and don´t run free, especially not being in heat.
Do you really think it is not possible to find as many responsible people in the USA as in Germany? Do you really think free ranging dogs are such a big problem in cities like New York which is said to have a very high amount of dogs? I think in those cases the real problem is the clean carpet and furniture and the unwillingness of the owner to do some basic dog training. And that is a point of view I find irresponsible.
And even if people in the US are so different it doesn´t mean than that your point of view fits on all other countries.

Ina

23-02-2010, 16:33	#6
michaelundinaeichhorn Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Bad Dürkheim Posts: 2,249	I am watching at spayed/neutered animals as a vet since more than two decades and did and do those surgeries myself. There are good reasons for this surgery and also very good reasons against which have to be seen at in every individual case because once you have the surgery done there is no way of making it undone. In the German animal protection law the amputation of bodyparts without medical reason is strictly forbidden, to do it just because a hurricane may come one day is surely no medical reason. That there is no way to controle a freeranging cat is seen as a reason and as we have lots of cats that are allowed to live a normal cat-life involving leaving the house without the owner is seen as enough reason to castrate it, additional to the health problem of persisting heat in female not spayed cats. As we have almost no free running (not within the reach of the owner) dogs and no health problem in dogs that aren´t mating it is a difficult question in our country. I think to ask this questions is right. That some day some bodypart may get ill is no medical reason as long as there is no genetic mutation. Though these surgeries are done I do believe that you have to decide on every case looking at every point involved. I find it highly questionable from an ethical point of view to spay/neuter in general in a country where it is not usual that the dogs run free without their owner and therefor it is very easy to prevent unwished litters. It of course is different in countries where there a big amounts of stray dogs but in most parts of the US it is not even allowed to let your dog run of leash, and also in the UK straying dogs are not the normal way dogs are kept. That there has been a hurricane in the Caymans can´t be a reason to spay dogs in Maine, USA or Berlin, Germany. That you have male and female dogs together that shouldn´t breed which each other and you can´t seperate them properly may be a reason. Again, there are good reasons for castration but to do it simply on every individual that is not meant to go into breeding (from a strictly human point of view also) for me is unethical. Ina Last edited by michaelundinaeichhorn; 23-02-2010 at 16:36.

24-02-2010, 09:18	#8
michaelundinaeichhorn Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Bad Dürkheim Posts: 2,249	As we work as behaviorists as a main job and there has been a lot of communication and research done here in the last years I can tell you that neutering hasn´t got the big behavioural effects as it is meant to have. It only has effects on cases that are only caused by sexual hormons,which are not very many and can be checked in advance by medical castration. before neutering. And it also can have very negativ behavioural effects! I think we simply have a very different point of view on treatment of problems in Europe and the USA. We also don´t declaw cats because they could scratch or destroy for example. The use of drugs for behavioral treatment is also of a much lower amount. If the argument is unwished offspring there is the way of sterilisation which has the same effect but doesn´t change the hormonal status. I also work for a very big animal shelter and can tell you that we only see very few cases of unwished puppies of German owners. Most litters are of rescued dogs out of countries with stray dogs, where of course like I wrote before neutering is the best way to go (and would be legal in Germany). I talked of familiy pets in "normal" countries where dogs live with their family and don´t run free, especially not being in heat. Do you really think it is not possible to find as many responsible people in the USA as in Germany? Do you really think free ranging dogs are such a big problem in cities like New York which is said to have a very high amount of dogs? I think in those cases the real problem is the clean carpet and furniture and the unwillingness of the owner to do some basic dog training. And that is a point of view I find irresponsible. And even if people in the US are so different it doesn´t mean than that your point of view fits on all other countries. Ina Last edited by michaelundinaeichhorn; 24-02-2010 at 15:57.

23-02-2010, 15:33	#3
michaelundinaeichhorn Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Bad Dürkheim Posts: 2,249	As spaying/neutering can have very negative side effects I find this point of view very strange. It means you amputate healthy organs instead of looking for responsible owners. Ina

24-02-2010, 00:10	#7
Vicky Guest Posts: n/a	Scientific article on the pros and cons of spaying and castrating dogs and cats I got from another pet forum : http://www.skeptvet.com/index.php?p=...s-of-Neutering As for my own opinion, I have seen far too many irresponsible people to have your point of view, Ina. I may be disillusioned, but I feel that with as many "accidents" I've seen, and with as many behavioral problems that neutering could help fix as I've seen, I definitely feel that any dog that isn't working or showing and going to be bred in the future should be fixed. With such a pet overpopulation, and with all the problems with people irresponsibly breeding mixed dogs, I just wouldn't feel comfortable selling a dog without either a co-ownership clause or a spay/neuter clause in the contract. As the breeder, it's your responsibility if the person you sell a puppy to has an "Oops" litter. I guess I just don't have as much faith in humanity as you do!