handling of health problems

[Hanka]

Yes Ina, you are right. But:
I will write here on wolfdog: "please send me fotos of your dwarf puppy, which was born in your kennel and write me names of parents. I will collect this info and I will write it on wolfdog and everybody can read it".........
How many breeders will inform us? I think nobody.
It is very difficult HOW we can handle it....
I wrote yesterday: czech club try to arrange test for czech dogs and owners will can do it and czech club breedcomission can "lead" breeding a little. We will not give together two parents-carriers. But not everybody on the World can read who is carrier, because it can ruin some kennel.
it is a pitty in other countries don´t exist breedcomission with infos about this dogs. But it is not only problem of dwarfism.....
I can write you: exist MUCH carriers in this moment in all states, but only sometimes we can see dwarf puppy. In czech was not dwarf puppy many years. (info what we have, it can´t be 100% info).
Dwarfism is problem, but not so big. For me is bigger problem HD, shy wolfdogs, mix with saarlos....

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

Yes I know, the reason is that people that are honest and talk openly will be blamed and the not honest ones that don´t care show themself of as the better breeders.
On the other side we now have in Germany the pairing of two sure carriers with nontested bitches that might be carriers, because people simply didn´t realize the size of the problem.
Dwarfism is a desease that is the easiest form to controle, recessiv with available test. But people will decrease the genetic pool if you show results openly, I know you are right in that point.

I don´t know a solution for this but it is the reason for my question why we tolerate over long times persons that blame others for things that they couldn´t avoid or things that are simply not true. That over and over again start attacks for their own personal reasons not out of curiosity.
This creates a athmosphere of fear and silence what is not in interest of our breed.

[saschia]

Ina, people are very irresponsible animals. I mean, there are even human pairs who are both proven carriers for some genetic disease (like cystic fibrosis), even ones that already have sick children and still they do reproduce. They do this to their own children! How can you stop them from doing it to the dogs?

I agree that doing the tests would be the best solution. But two conditions must be fulfilled so that it would be all fair - that most of the dogs are tested, and that the tests are reasonably priced. And such situation is almost impossible, unless it is compulsory... Imagine that I test my bitch and she would be a carrier. If there are not enough tested studs, then I have a problem - do I say openly, that my bitch is a carrier and the pups may be dwarfs - and have problems selling the pups, or do I stay quiet? Or do I stop breeding with my bitch until I find a tested, healthy, non-related male with good hips and exterior compensating my bitch's - which might mean forever? Or do I pay for the test of the selected male and pray for good results? Every one of these possibilities is bad, discriminating and especially hard if I live in Eastern Europe, which means that I have to pay for most things as much as Western Europeans while earning only half (if I am lucky) of their incomes? And selling the pups also for half of western prices, if I don't want to sell all pups out of the country?

[Nebulosa]

Spread gossips...
Before were common people ask about what happened, or what the breeder X or Y have done, its really not problem as questions like that can be explaineable for every good breeder, who read can believe in it or not, this way also help us to know who is doing something for the breed and who not, also as work as warn for some people who only wants breed only looking money, or doing the wrong thing, they can be asure that in the small world of CzW people are looking what you're doing independant of where you live. By one side, its good.

But, its completly different of what for exemple Monika's do here, she comes, spread some gossips which she never was able to proove and so run away without reply any questions. If you show her lies, she comes back, make personal attacks and use the excuse of "i'm judge" or "i'm 20 years breeder" or "I was club member" and so on for try to convince most naive people to believe in her.

I'm talking particulary in this case, because even without mean names, was clear that was about her that we're talking here also.

In internet this kind of person is called troll, and comonly it get banned in the firsts posts, but the main diference of wolfdog.org is that mostly people know each other personaly, have already saw each other in real, if dont, one day probably will see, or will see a dog from this person, that's why I simply had ignored this internet rule for long time, only looking to the extremal cases.

The main problem appeared for sure when this same user had start to try blame owners for have carriers of Dwarf genes and spread gossips about it, to tell you the truth, I entered today for measure what was talked about it in the topic, and probably ban this person because of it.

The first step for end with genetic diseases, is know about them and be able to talk about it freely, without fear of be attacked because you have or had used a descendant of the dog in question without know about the problem, look that its different of repeat the same error even after know it.

I'm pretty used to moderate some foruns, but this one was really diferent for me because of the fact that the users here are not only " users" but people which breed or have a exemplar of this breed, which we know or will know personaly, its change something and that's why I where soo benevolent even with trolls.

So, if it be the will of the users, I can start to follow the common internet rules of "good sense" as they should be used, for moderate this forum, as its done in the majority of the others internet forums.

[Hanka]

Ina, I must correct you a little. Nobody knows and things about dwarfism long time. Thanks to Mijke we started to thing about it.And it is only a few last years.
It is reason, why we can´t search to history of it, because we have not information about dwarf pups for example before year 2000.
For breeders it was "only small puppy" maybe with some health problem.
Much dwarf pups died after born and I think only a few pups survived and we can see them like dwarf puppy.

[loco]

Originally Posted by Nebulosa

So, if it be the will of the users, I can start to follow the common internet rules of "good sense" as they should be used, for moderate this forum, as its done in the majority of the others internet forums.

I hope for the future that it stil will be "mine own free will" to judge for myself if something is a fairytale, gossip, a personel attack or the truth .

Groette Martine.

[Rona]

Originally Posted by loco

I hope for the future that it stil will be "mine own free will" to judge if something is a fairytale, gossip, a personel attack or the truth

I also think any kind of "cenzorship" would deprive some people of the valuable opportunity to unveil their true motivations and intentions.

Ina, a lack of answer is also an answer.... Paradoxically, a very self-destructive kind of answer!

[Nebulosa]

Originally Posted by Rona

I also think any kind of "cenzorship" would deprive some people of the valuable opportunity to unveil their true motivations and intentions.

Its the bad side of more rigorous moderation, for who are ble to judge the informations, these people are also able to know who is right, who is wrong, what is gossips and so on will have the use of the forum for "let masks fall" cutted by half , but for newbies its pretty different, have people who arrives here without have the minimal idea about HD, ED, myelopathy, dwarf and others problems, someone who have no idea about it and read the unfair comment of someone which let clear about "how bad is for breeding have a carrier gen for dwarf in the breeding" and "how unscrupulous a breeder which breed using a carrier dog are" will only be more confuse, will start to seek only free dogs for breeding and find 'bad" that someone used a carrier dog and maybe, depending of the person, will even start to blame breeders who have carrier dogs, for exemple, wrong information can cause much more damaged than the lack of it.

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

Originally Posted by Rona

I also think any kind of "censorship" would deprive some people of the valuable opportunity to unveil their true motivations and intentions.

Ina, a lack of answer is also an answer.... Paradoxically, a very self-destructive kind of answer!

Yes you are right but I think you sometimes need to know the whole story that happened before to realize that. And not all people think to the end of a story they heard or can read between lines.
For those who tend to believe what they read and are newbies it is like Nebulosa wrote difficult to find the truth. If the tactic wouldn´t be successful in at least some cases it wouldn´t be used for so many years for so many times and not every breeder would hesitate to write openly about his problem to look for advice.

I don´t care that much about people that are not intelligent enough or care enough to find out what is right or wrong, in my strange opinion CSW are intelligent dogs that need very clever owners to be handled properly.
But is it really in favor of the breed when we let lies get so much influence? It is much more difficult to get everything on a better way than to start right. If we look at the situation in some countries we can see how many non standard dogs and maybe also not healthy dogs this produces.
And if we look in some of these countries on the experts that gave their advice we will find the same people again that we find here telling their weird stories and giving no answers..

[z Peronówki]

Originally Posted by Hanka

I can write you: exist MUCH carriers in this moment in all states, but only sometimes we can see dwarf puppy. In czech was not dwarf puppy many years. (info what we have, it can´t be 100% info).

You see - it is exactly the result fo breeders fights... I know at last about 2 dwarfs born in Czech Republic int he last 2 years and some other cases as "suspicious"...
It is the problem with "information" flow and the reality...

First - just think how many puppies die in every litter. I know by some kennels we remove sometimes 50% of the puppies because they die before they get registered. Sometimes we remove whole litters. I do not say they all are dwarfs but it means we do not have a LOT of information about the resons of puppies dying.

Second - breeding comittee members are also breeders and they ALSO use (or can use) such information for their personal "wars". Look what Monika is writing - many of the accusations base on the information which she get when she was breeding comittee member. So it is obvious that many breeders will hide the problems because they will be affraid to be attacked.

Do you remember the case with the breeders who had dogs with missing testicles? He was marked as "cryptorchidic" breeder ONLY because he was honest enough to show their dogs on the bonitation when they get P14 because of the missing testicle. After it he was attacked by other breeders (saying he is bad breeder) how ALSO had dogs with missing testicles but they were "clever" enough to hide such dogs and do not allow their owners to go with their dogs to make bonitation...

Do you want other example - I publish all HD-results of my dogs. Even the worser one. After Bolton had HD-C I heard other Polish breeder saying that the only "displatic" dog in Poland live in my kennel. It was told by breeder who is using not HD-tested lines and hiding information about really bad results in her line.

Some years ago we received HD-results from pone Italian kennel. Good one were for publication. Worser only for our information. Do you know why the person was forced to do this? Because of the another Italian breeder who was blaming her for breeding dogs with HD. It is funny because exactly this person bred many dysplatic dogs - of course he was putting on internet only the good results of his dogs. I would say more - he was putting BETTER results that the dogs really had.
I was shocked when exactly by the person who was attacking other italian breeders wer realized how many dogs with bad HD and ED results were hidden and how many results we had to fix because the breeder wrote they are HD-A but in the fact they were HD-B or HD-C....

Such hypocrisy is very common by many breeders and I could write tens of examples why many breeders hide some information. Of course there are some breeders who do not affraid to write about the problems in public but if we like it or not miost problems are and will be hidden and known only for a very small initiated group of breeders.

Originally Posted by Hanka

Dwarfism is problem, but not so big. For me is bigger problem HD, shy wolfdogs, mix with saarlos....

Yes, there are many "problems" which we should follow...

It will be easy to deal with the mixes - so far the spread in the breed because many people have no idea they have not-purebreed dogs. I know that in the new database and mixes - not REAL wolfdogs - will be marked as "NOT FOR BREEDING". Such warning will get EVERY dog who has a mix in the pedigree. Even if the mix will be in 20 generation before. We will let the lines to die out.
The breeders and owners of mixes are also banned by Wolfdog - their dogs are not put on the stud dog list, their litters are not advertised and their kennels are not on the kennel list.


About the health problems - since we have more and more infromation we "discover" new problems. Of course many of them exist and will exist forever. Cryptorchidism, epilepsy, heart problems will appear because they appear in every population. We track such cases and collect the information.

For example heart problems are more common as many of you think. But still it is not "typical problem" for this breed. It means only that it is good idea also to get your dog tested and just not to breed with dogs with such problems.

The same with epilepsy - from time to time there are cases in different "lines" and in different countries. But again: write about such cases, do not use "ill" dogs fro breeding. It is all what can be done bacause we do not even know what kind of epilepsy it can be (sometimes it is caused by accidents, sometimes it looks like genetic - there are many possible factors).

With HD and ED it is already more clear. Of course worser HD appear and will appear in any kennels. But there are already lines where problems with the hips are much more common. Remove this lines? Of course not - nobody ask it. But expecially such lines should be more tested - and the dogs with worser result sshould be removed from breeding without looking for a "backdoors" (vet who will get better results to a dicplatic dog so the dog can be used for breeding).
Also no responsible breeder should use a dog from "ED-line" if the dog is not tested for ED... And for sure not to make it with a female comming from similar line (known for similar problems).

If we keep to this rules the problems will not dissapear (they will never dissapear as in EVERY population there will be small percentage of ill dogs which are "ill" because of the mutations and "bad luck") but the problems will not spread in the breed....